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    Roll over Einstein: Pillar of physics challenged

    GENEVA (AP) — A startling find at one of the world's foremost laboratories that a subatomic particle seemed to move faster than the speed of light has scientists around the world rethinking Albert Einstein and one of the foundations of physics.

    Now they are planning to put the finding to further high-speed tests to see if a revolutionary shift in explaining the workings of the universe is needed — or if the European scientists made a mistake.

    Researchers at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research outside Geneva, who announced the discovery Thursday are still somewhat surprised themselves and planned to detail their findings on Friday.

    If these results are confirmed, they won't change at all the way we live or the way the universe behaves. After all, these particles have presumably been speed demons for billions of years. But the finding will fundamentally change our understanding of how the world works, physicists said.

    Only two labs elsewhere in the world can try to replicate the results. One is Fermilab outside Chicago and the other is a Japanese lab put on hold by the March tsunami and earthquake. Fermilab officials met Thursday about verifying the European study and said their particle beam is already up and running. The only trouble is that their measuring systems aren't nearly as precise as the Europeans' and won't be upgraded for a while, said Fermilab scientist Rob Plunkett.

    "This thing is so important many of the normal scientific rivalries fall by the wayside," said Plunkett, a spokesman for the Fermilab team's experiments. "Everybody is going to be looking at every piece of information."

    Plunkett said he is keeping an open mind on whether Einstein's theories need an update, but he added: "It's dangerous to lay odds against Einstein. Einstein has been tested repeatedly over and over again."

    Going faster than light is something that is just not supposed to happen according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity — the one made famous by the equation E equals mc2. The speed of light — 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second) — has long been considered a cosmic speed limit.

    "We'd be thrilled if it's right because we love something that shakes the foundation of what we believe," said famed Columbia University physicist Brian Greene. "That's what we live for."

    The claim is being greeted with skepticism inside and outside the European lab.

    "The feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said James Gillies, a spokesman for CERN.

    CERN provided the particle accelerator to send neutrinos on a breakneck 454-mile (730-kilometer) trip underground from Geneva to Italy. France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research collaborated with Italy's Ran Sass National Laboratory for the experiment, which has no connection to the atomic-smashing Large Hadron Collider, which is also located at CERN.

    Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that "they are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail."

    That will be necessary, because Einstein's special relativity theory underlies "pretty much everything in modern physics," said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. "It has worked perfectly up until now." And part of that theory is that nothing is faster than the speed of light.

    CERN reported that a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant.

    Given the enormous implications of the find, they spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there were no flaws in the experiment.

    A team at Fermilab had similar faster-than-light results in 2007. But that experiment had such a large margin of error that it undercut its scientific significance.

    If anything is going to throw a cosmic twist into Einstein's theories, it's not surprising that it's the strange particles known as neutrinos. These are odd slivers of an atom that have confounded physicists for about 80 years.

    The neutrino has almost no mass, it comes in three different "flavors," may have its own antiparticle and even has been seen shifting from one flavor to another while shooting out from the sun, said physicist Phillip Schewe, communications director at the Joint Quantum Institute in Maryland.

    Fermilab team spokeswoman Jenny Thomas, a physics professor at the University College of London, said there must be a "more mundane explanation" for the European findings. She said Fermilab's experience showed how hard it is to measure accurately the distance, time and angles required for such a claim.

    Nevertheless, the Fermilab team, which shoots neutrinos from Chicago to Minnesota, will go back to work immediately to try to verify or knock down the new findings, Thomas said.

    Drew Baden, chairman of the physics department at the University of Maryland, said it is far more likely that there are measurement errors or some kind of fluke. Tracking neutrinos is very difficult, he said.

    "This is ridiculous what they're putting out," Baden said. "Until this is verified by another group, it's flying carpets. It's cool, but..."

    So if the neutrinos are pulling this fast one on Einstein, how can it happen?

    Stephen Parke, head theoretician at the Fermilab, said there could be a cosmic shortcut through another dimension — physics theory is full of unseen dimensions — that allows the neutrinos to beat the speed of light.

    Indiana University theoretical physicist Alan Kostelecky says there may be situations when the background is different in the universe, not perfectly symmetrical as Einstein says. Those changes in background may change both the speed of light and the speed of neutrinos.

    But that doesn't mean Einstein's theory is ready for the trash heap, he said.

    "I don't think you're going to ever kill Einstein's theory. You can't. It works," Kostelecky said, adding there are just times when an additional explanation is needed.

    If the European findings are correct, "this would change the idea of how the universe is put together," Columbia's Greene said.

    But he added: "I would bet just about everything I hold dear that this won't hold up to scrutiny."

    ___

    Borenstein reported from Washington.

     

    473 comments

    • Mark  •  8 mths ago
      In building a great bridge over a broad river you do not turn to an engineer who had only built one over a narrow stream,but ones who had a record of great bridges. This is from a book Im reading but its not about physics,only the time period is the same period of both Albert's contributions. The findings made on neutrinos were of the group with a record of the latter engineers.
      • HiFi 8 mths ago
        You should read about Nikola Tesla
    • Brian  •  8 mths ago
      Before anyone gets too excited about time travel, interstellar travel, or whatever, they saved 60 ns on a 730 km trip. Proxima Centauri, the closest star to Sol, is just over 4 light years away. That means, at the speed of light it takes just over 4 years to get there. If we add the "bonus speed" of the neutrinos from this experiment, it would make the trip about 52 minutes shorted. This would reduce the trip to ... still just over 4 years. If we talk about traveling to the Andromeda (nearest) galaxy at 2.3 million light years, instead of taking 2,300,000 years, it would only take 2,299,943 years. I'm not ready to book my space-cruise just yet.
      • Binky 8 mths ago
        Yeah, and like, also, like... we aren't neutrinos. So we don't even get the 52 minutes.
      • DestinyMaker 8 mths ago
        don't like..why?..because how did you know?..because you search it in internet?...no no no..every answer you made..you must have your own experiment..not in others...
      • Levi John 8 mths ago
        I thought that Google Chrome was the fastest
    • Mark  •  8 mths ago
      Ya know I open my big mouth and then Im forced to look back to get foward. Oh yeah back to reading about World War One, then World War Two.
    • Mark Michael C  •  8 mths ago
      In Einsteins time it is the fastest but in today's time where everything could be possible, with the help of progressive technology, they will find new and better things that the past can't find
      • Paul Getty 8 mths ago
        Faster than the speed of light?
      • jhan 8 mths ago
        Although its not 100 % possible but I still agreed to your ideas. Things change as time passes by... undiscovered things before can be discover now through the help of modern technologies.
      • James Manlangit 8 mths ago
        well said. everybody should be open to new ideas if proven right :)
    • phil  •  8 mths ago
      I've known people who change their minds faster.
    • Elmer Domingo  •  8 mths ago
      How about The Flash? Is he faster than the speed of light? :)
      • DestinyMaker 8 mths ago
        no sir..flash is like a blink..understand?..
      • Not Slick willy 8 mths ago
        Before you can blink or think something bad happens!
      • Dexman' 8 mths ago
        No! Because I once knocked knots on his head, faster that he could rub em'. dexman
    • HiFi  •  8 mths ago
      “All of my investigations seem to point to the conclusion that they are small particles, each carrying so small a charge that we are justified in calling them neutrons. They move with great velocity, exceeding that of light.” – Nikola Tesla, July 10, 1932
    • Bill R  •  8 mths ago
      Quantum physics has had a history of defying rational expectations — particles seeming to be in two different places at once, then behaving one way when we attempt to observe them and another when we look away again — and Einstein himself seemed to have a great deal of difficulty coming to terms with it, if indeed he ever did. His hoped for Unified Field Theory was an attempt to do just that but he was never able to work it out. It is said that Einstein's Theory of Relativity itself predicts its own downfall since time is said to slow down so much in a black hole that at its center it stops completely, which, if true, means that time ceases to exist altogether, a proposition which neither common sense, logic, nor Einstein's Relatively is equipped to explain. It is the same as saying there are parts of the physical universe where the physical universe no longer exists, and how can something be a part of something and not part of it at the same time? If such things are possible that don't seem possible, perhaps the speed of light then is no longer the absolute barrier it was once thought to be, particularly to the mystical-seeming behavior of the quantum world. We need to consider that there will likely be limits to the validity of Einstein's Relatively just as there proved to be with Newtonian physics. This did not invalidate Newton, by the way — we could never have relied on his physics to send rockets to the moon if it did — it simply showed that there were limits to the conditions in which his equations remained valid. In other words, their validity was relative, not absolute. So should we expect that it is likely at some point Relativity, too, will prove to be relative.
    • TruthBeTold  •  8 mths ago
      "Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery." Good idea.
    • Timothy  •  8 mths ago
      Considering what Einstein had to work with at the time of his theories I think he pioneered the field without the aid of multi million dollar lab facilities.
    • Robert  •  8 mths ago
      I think Einstein would be delighted and sitting on the edge of his seat waiting for the discovery to be challenged and either verified or disproven.
    • Mark  •  8 mths ago
      I am sincerely pleased that we have intelligent people like most of you to ponder this and study such things. I just want all the kernels of corn to pop in the microwave popcorn bag..........
    • old hippie  •  8 mths ago
      There is something that travels faster than the speed of light - Gossip.
    • meh  •  8 mths ago
      The lead in sentence for this article is garbage. Not one scientist is, "rethinking Albert Einstein and one of the foundations of physics" because you can't undo his success and the scientists know that. What crap writing!

      What the scientists ARE doing is racing to see if the findings about neutrinos are true. They want to be AT Einstein's level.
    • Mark and Kelly  •  8 mths ago
      So, if the speed of light (time) is now slower than something they have discovered, What they have discovered will possibly be found in our past. This give a plausible theory that one could travel back to before one was born, and change the future so that one does not get born, thereby preventing their going back in time. Think about this for a while.
    • Patricks  •  8 mths ago
      Great. No their is permanent. Newton ruled for 200 years or more. Now Einstein is ruling since 1905 when he published special theory of relativity.

      Botch cracked the code of nature and saw little further.

      But I think progress in experimental Physics and Observation is way ahead of theoretical physics.

      I am sure we will find something that will not obey Einstein Theory of General Relativity. Einstein days are numbered and Experimental Physics makes more progress.

      Very good for Physics and also good for mankind.
    • just_think  •  8 mths ago
      What if what they actually measured is just a better and more precise value of the velocity of light? My understanding is that the value of the speed of light we have is an approximation very much dependent on the accuracy or precision of the measuring instrumentation set-up.
    • d1968leon2  •  8 mths ago
      again lot's of brilliant people wanna be, I mean not with the article, but with the comments. ^_^
    • z-force  •  8 mths ago
      Interesting stuff!! Wish there was more to this story~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    • LoyalAmerican  •  8 mths ago
      I strongly urge all of you to look at AP's handling of this potentially significant scientific discovery as a children with crayons criticizing Michealangelo's Pieta because some of the paint might have come from a specialty shop. Look at their headlines suggesting Einstein should 'Rollover'. These two idiotic reporters belong on American Idol where teeny boppers scream in high pitched voices. I doubt either reporter has a scientific background or they would not approach the consensus genius of Albert Einstein.
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