Discover Yahoo! With Your Friends

Explore news, videos, and much more based on what your friends are reading and watching. Publish your own activity and retain full control.

To get started, first

YOUR FRIENDS' ACTIVITY

    So What About Romney's Offshore Tax Havens?

    So the story-of-the-week seems to be Mitt Romney's off-shore investments.  I am deeply confused by the reporting.  Either that, or the reporters are.


    I first saw this story via Sarah Kliff at the Washington Post:

    One possibility is that the tax rate might not be the only politically troublesome revelation in Romney's returns. Over at Reuters, Sam Youngman suggests that his work with Bain Capital might have led Romney to shelter income offshore
    The Sam Youngman piece does indeed sort of suggest this, but it's more than a bit hazy on how.

    His vast fortune is invested in dozens of funds linked to Bain Capital LLC, the powerhouse private equity firm he co-founded and led for 15 years. Several Bain funds have offshore connections and take advantage of tax breaks used only by the U.S. financial elite.

    His tax returns could shed light on how Romney and Bain use offshore strategies to avoid taxes, said Daniel Berman, a former U.S. Treasury deputy international tax counsel and now director of tax at Boston University's graduate tax program.

    Bain funds in which Romney is invested are scattered from Delaware to the Cayman Islands and Bermuda, Ireland and Hong Kong, according to a Reuters analysis of securities filings.

    "Certain interests in foreign investment structures would have to be reported on attachments to his return," Berman said.
    All of these things are true, but they do not add up to tax evasion, or even tax avoidance.  Corporations do not have to pay taxes on income unless they repatriate the money.  Individuals, however, do.   The quote sort of muddies the distinction--the returns, we're told, could shed light on how "Romney and Bain" use offshore strategies to avoid taxes, but while I'm certainly not an international tax expert, from what I know, that the phrases "could shed light" and "and Bain" are doing a whole lot of work there.  

    As far as I know, there are only a few ways to "shelter" income offshore, and they usually look very much like "sheltering" income onshore--which is to say that we do not tax people on unrealized capital gains.  And for very good reason--just ask all the dotcommers with employee stock options who paid huge taxes to exercise those options, and then saw the value of those options fall to zero.  The IRS didn't give them their money back, either.

    The tax expert Youngman consulted implies that this is a very confusing concept:

    "I remember as a young lawyer being surprised to see tax returns of very successful investors showing net losses - because they were recognizing net losses" but not yet factoring in unrealized gains, Berman said.
    I am sure that Professor Berman is a very smart, knowledgeable man; it is unfortunate that Youngman chose a quote that makes him sound like an idiot.  "Some years, even successful people with a lot of assets lose money" should not be a shocking proposition for anyone old enough to graduate from law school--or read Reuters.  Would you really be surprised to hear that the owner of a California 7-11 had lost money in 2001, even though the building he'd bought in 1981 had appreciated by 70%?

    The other way I know of to avoid taxes with an offshore strategy is to invest in a US corporation which doesn't repatriate earnings, and therefore doesn't pay taxes on this.  Any of you who invest in GE, UPS, or Apple are enjoying this sort of tax shelter, and if you sold some of the stock, I suppose it would be technically accurate to say that your tax returns shed light on whether "George and Apple use offshore strategies to avoid taxes", but this would not really be a very interesting statement.  You still have to pay taxes if you want to get your hands on any of the money.

    Most of the writing I've seen today about this seems to be confusing the Cayman's role as an offshore tax haven, and its other role as a headquarters for hedge funds.  They are not entirely unrelated, but they are also not the same thing.  Cayman, and a lot of other islands, became tax havens because they wouldn't tell your government if you had money there.  It's not because there is some special tax break for investing there.  

    If the investments are showing up on Romney's tax return, then they are definitionally not this sort of tax haven.

    Now, the US tax code is very complicated, and I am not an international tax expert, and it's certainly possible that Bain has hit on some structure which allows its investors to enjoy tax-sheltered income while actually having access to it--and that this structure would show up on Romney's return. For all I know, every rich person in the country has a portfolio positively stuffed with such investments.  

    But if so, I would like to hear such structures described, not obliquely hinted at.  I know I have some tax experts in my readership, so how about it?





    More From The Atlantic

     

    56 comments

    • Enough already  •  4 mths ago
      It is every American's obligation to pay their taxes according to the tax code. No more and no less. We all know the tax code is broken and that it encourages actions that are not in our country's best interest. We don't need higher taxes (I pay 35%) but we do need changes that bring jobs and capital back to the US and that require the super weathy (Democrats and Republicans) to pay taxes more in line with what high wage earners pay. I don't blame Romney, GE or Buffet for having low effective tax rates - I blame congress and the Presidents who are in power or have been in power for the past 20 years.
      • Thomas 4 mths ago
        Well said!
      • WyoBrit 4 mths ago
        Let's get our facts straight: nobody pays 35% of their income in federal income taxes (the taxes we are talking about). Your marginal tax rate may be 35% - you pay 35 cents on the last dollar of income - but your average tax rate has to be lower because of deductions, personal allowances and tax credits.

        The tax code has been cobbled together by Congress - Presidents have little say in the details of which activities get loopholes or protection in the Code - over decades. To blame Obama for the tax code mess (which Douglas obliquely did) is ridiculous. He has only reduced tax rates in 3 years in the White House. And the issue is not rates but the special provisions that protect special interests from the mortgage deduction (that primarily benefits richer buyers) to the special allowances and deductions for oil and gas companies.

        Romney may be acting entirely within the tax code with his offshore investments but he is only making the issue bigger and worse by not publishing his tax records for the last 15 years. We need to see not just this year's records but the pattern of income and investment over the years he was at Bain and since then to understand where his wealth came from, to illustrate the tax code mess, and to know what sort of president he might be.
      • Enough already 4 mths ago
        I didn't blame Obama, I included Congress and 20 years worth of Presidents. As to my marginal tax rate, you are correct. But let's add in social security taxes, medicare taxes, excise taxes, state taxes, local income taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes and then the bypass taxes on dividends taxed at both the corporate rate and my personal rate and I am well in excess of 35%.

        IF you want to get the facts straight, get them all straight.
    • sick and tired  •  4 mths ago
      Funny isn't it? Romney is taking advantage of laws and loopholes that guys like Newt and the other DC insiders put in place (for their own benefit) but now they want to hammer him on it.

      Politics=Lies, Hypocrisy and Underhandedness.
    • Michael  •  Dallas, Texas  •  4 mths ago
      I am an international tax expert, though perhaps in the exact area involved here. My guess is the Cayman funds were used so that non US investors could invest without being subject to US taxation. For example, if a Saudi invested in the Bain fund, and it invested in a French company, use of a Cayman investment entity would avoid US tax for the Saudi investor (though not the US investor).
      Income earned by non US corporations is not subject to tax in the hands of their US shareholders as long as the income is not Subpart F income (which in general means it has to be business income) and is not distributed to the US shareholder as a dividend. This is the provision used by GE and most US corporations to defer tax on their income earned outside of the US.
      • Mike D 4 mths ago
        Agreed, also it should be noted, this can be a 'frst step' as further vestment can find
        low gains tax vehicles for returing the money(after 1 year term) back to the U.S..
        Done correctly, there should be no more than a 10% rate exposure. With a little luck, gains during that one year might make up any potential tax loss..just looking as from the 10% exposure gains rate and not taking entire revenues into account.
    • Eric  •  Washington, District of Columbia  •  4 mths ago
      It doesn't matter whether Romney's offshore investments are shelters or not. His problem is that he's running against perception, not fact.
      • A Yahoo! User 4 mths ago
        How do you know Romney's offshore investments are shelters or not?
        Romney can clear up the perception by releasing his Returns.
      • RJ_McBean 4 mths ago
        The fact that he listed them on his tax return, means they're not shelters.
      • Mike D 4 mths ago
        I'm sure 15% off shore is better than 15% on shore!.. not a shelter, what a joke
    • Dave  •  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania  •  4 mths ago
      He's aware of these loopholes and are exploiting them. He has not interest in focusing on how to fix them. So he is more interested in his own welware than the welfare of this nation and it's citizens. This corruption must come to an end!
      • shane 4 mths ago
        Dave, is it just HE that is involved here? Am I EXPLOITING the loopholes if I deduct my mortgage interest? Stop for a second as ask yourself what HAVE YOU done on your taxes over the years. What about the Congressmen who own 100k+ and still not paying. What about the special interests (Soros) who have skated by for Obama?
      • JMan 4 mths ago
        Come on Shane, Dave "knows" what Romney thinks and what his intentions are, just ask him!
      • Dave 4 mths ago
        His intentions are obvious by his actions. To make money. These are apparent flaws in our system that contributes to the crippling of our country. If he cared about this nation, he would at least have the decency to pay the taxes that he likely encouraged to be put into effect.
    • m  •  Richmond, Virginia  •  4 mths ago
      Is there a blanket assumption that NO member of CONGRESS uses the same techniques to shelter their income? Of course not... But telling tales on Members of CONGRESS is not grandstanding... for a biased position... to aid a best friend in high places... Media is interested in selling dead fish, not equal treatment
    • Dushan29  •  4 mths ago
      Seems to me that our Congress needs to do an overhaul of our income tax laws as it pertains to offshore banks or nations that seek beneficial rewards for keeping investor's hidden assets from the IRS. These countries are making money that rightfully belongs to the American people. Laws that allow only the rich to do what Romney does should be outlawed. The majority of Americans have to pay income taxes. Is it any wonder that the income tax revenue stream has been so low since Ronald Reagan. No wonder we're in such a pinch. Someone has to pay for our Defense, our infrastructure, and provide for the common welfare of all Americans.

      Our military men and women have to pay taxes. Most of them don't earn enough money to hide their assets offshore. Yet, they give their all to protect the American people. Why should someone like Romney become president and commander-in-chief of our military if he is such an elitist and so rich that he hides his assets overseas. He is really way out of touch with the vast majority of the American people I don't trust him, and I hope my fellow Americans see through his facade.
    • Chris  •  Monterey Park, California  •  4 mths ago
      How dare Megan McArdle use facts and logic to get in the way of a good old fashioned internet lynching. She should know better that the populist anger doesn't care about what the truth really is.
    • Michael  •  Dallas, Texas  •  4 mths ago
      ABC News/Nightline Reoprt was a total hatchet job on Romney. Fianlly - someone with common sense has written a clear & concise article.
    • usok  •  Houston, Texas  •  4 mths ago
      Well written and agree. Every rich person will have a portfolio stuffed with tax sheltered investments as long as it is legal. I would do the same thing if it is legal and I am rich. I wonder who are those financial elites in the country? How come no mention about their names and jobs?
    • Mitch  •  San Francisco, California  •  4 mths ago
      I think most of you are missing the point. Nobody is saying that what Mr. Romney did is illegal, and none of the reporting I've seen suggests that. The reporting is shedding light on how the rich in our country (and yes, I'm one of them) have the means to "legally" reduce their taxes as much as possible, while the little guys pay their 30+%. It also sheds light on how the tax laws in our country are designed to benefit the rich. Let's just state the obvious. I think the take-away here is that Romney lives in a rarefied world and is "out of touch" with the issues facing the average Amercan. Mr. Romney earned $370,000 is speaking fees last year, and he characterizes that as "very little" money. Just those fees alone place him in the top 1% of income earners in the U.S., and he characterizes it as "very little" money.
    • Tacoman  •  4 mths ago
      This just illustrates that the tax code needs to be simplified. Its almost impossible to tell what is legal. Its impossible to tell what is ethical. Deductions should be eliminated. Even the mortgage deduction. All income, capital gains or direct, should be treated the same. Politicians put special treatment in the tax code on purpose and then make an issue of it if someone in the other party has the audicity to use it. I suspect Mitt is legally clean but the Dems will make an issue of it anyway. If he were smart he would make tax simplification part of his agenda.
    • jaysee  •  4 mths ago
      Good article. If Romney is cheating on taxes, it will come out. But if he is working within the rules of tax laws, it just doesn't matter if it is fair or not. That's the system we have and no one is in a hurry to change it.
    • C  •  4 mths ago
      This isn't even news. So what if anyone has assets spread around the world. If they have evidence that his is breaking the law, that would be news. This is just another example of the media attempting smear conservative candidates.

      Charlie Rangel (D-NY) has assets in foreign countries and was proven to be committing tax fraud with respect to income earned from those assets.
    • Winter Guy  •  Boston, Massachusetts  •  4 mths ago
      This is a great dialog to come up. It is a manifestation of the same issue which motivated the "occupy" movement. The question is: WHO IS BEING REPRESENTED BY OUR GOVERNMENT? Since Romney is a great example of the very rich in action, he has some work to do to show us that he is open to the interests of the population as a whole. One example of this that is on the table here is whether revenue loopholes benefit the country as a whole.
    • fritz  •  4 mths ago
      The high incomes were given an enourmous tax cut under Bush, it was suppose to boost the economy and create jobs, instead it goes to off shore accounts. What about that is hard to understand. It was a bad decsion and needs to be overturned.

      "Private Industry" which the GOP always talk about is constantly looking at past decisions and changing the bad ones. That is what we do in free enterprise.

      The tax cuts have only given us massive debt, they have not created any jobs
    • nomore  •  Cincinnati, Ohio  •  4 mths ago
      How could the peoples elect a man to be President when he took advantage on his country.
    • Thomas  •  North Royalton, Ohio  •  4 mths ago
      Is it legal or not? If it is...shut up! There's not a single person ranting about this who wouldn't do the same thing if it is a legal manuever. And don't use the "e" (ethical) word either. It's legal tax procedure or not. Case closed. There are no non-ethical LEGAL tax manuevers.
    • gerry  •  Levittown, Pennsylvania  •  4 mths ago
      Sure, its according to the law....but that's not the point that I get from it. Romney and the rest, wave the flags about patriotism, supporting america and our economy during campaign season, But in the course of their business dealings, its"me" and $$ first. The US economy lost a ton of revenue due to the Cayman accounts. So, once again ..hand-hold corporations and ask the middle class, roads, schools, etc. to sacrifice, because there is insufficient tax revenue. They got their Bush tax cut extension for 2.....and then want to argue payroll tax cut for 1.......It IS class warfare.
    • CS  •  Tampa, Florida  •  4 mths ago
      Another issue is that Romney was born with a silver spoon, he did not get to Bain on his own. He is not a self-made rich guy, he's just a trust fund baby trying to chase his father
    [ [ [['Connery is an experienced stuntman', 2]], 'http://yhoo.it/KeQd0p', '[Slideshow: See photos taken on the way down]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['Connery is an experienced stuntman', 7]], ' http://yhoo.it/KpUoHO', '[Slideshow: Death-defying daredevils]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['know that we have confidence in', 3]], 'http://yhoo.it/LqYjAX ', '[Related: The Secret Service guide to Cartagena]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['We picked up this other dog and', 5]], 'http://yhoo.it/JUSxvi', '[Related: 8 common dog fears, how to calm them]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['accused of running a fake hepatitis B', 5]], 'http://bit.ly/JnoJYN', '[Related: Did WH share raid details with filmmakers?]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['accused of running a fake hepatitis B', 3]], 'http://bit.ly/KoKiqJ', '[Factbox: AQAP, al-Qaeda in Yemen]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['have my contacts on or glasses', 3]], 'http://abcn.ws/KTE5AZ', '[Related: Should the murder charge be dropped?]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['have made this nation great as Sarah Palin', 5]], 'http://yhoo.it/JD7nlD', '[Related: Bristol Palin reality show debuts June 19]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['have made this nation great as Sarah Palin', 1]], 'http://bit.ly/JRPFRO', '[Related: McCain adviser who vetted Palin weighs in on VP race]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['A JetBlue flight from New York to Las Vegas', 3]], 'http://yhoo.it/GV9zpj', '[Related: View photos of the JetBlue plane in Amarillo]', ' ', '630', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['the 28-year-old neighborhood watchman who shot and killed', 15]], 'http://news.yahoo.com/photos/white-house-stays-out-of-teen-s-killing-slideshow/', 'Click image to see more photos', 'http://l.yimg.com/cv/ip/ap/default/120411/martinzimmermen.jpg', '630', ' ', 'AP', ], [ [['Titanic', 7]], 'http://news.yahoo.com/titanic-anniversary/', ' ', 'http://l.yimg.com/a/p/us/news/editorial/b/4e/b4e5ad9f00b5dfeeec2226d53e173569.jpeg', '550', ' ', ' ', ], [ [['He was in shock and still strapped to his seat', 6]], 'http://news.yahoo.com/photos/navy-jet-crashes-in-virginia-slideshow/', 'Click image to see more photos', 'http://l.yimg.com/cv/ip/ap/default/120406/jet_ap.jpg', '630', ' ', 'AP', ], [ [['xxxxxxxxxxxx', 11]], 'http://news.yahoo.com/photos/russian-grannies-win-bid-to-sing-at-eurovision-1331223625-slideshow/', 'Click image to see more photos', 'http://l.yimg.com/a/p/us/news/editorial/1/56/156d92f2760dcd3e75bcd649a8b85fcf.jpeg', '500', ' ', 'AP', ] ]
    [ [ [['did not go as far his colleague', 8]], '29438204', '0' ], [ [[' the 28-year-old neighborhood watchman who shot and killed', 4]], '28924649', '0' ], [ [['because I know God protects me', 14], ['Brian Snow was at a nearby credit union', 5]], '28811216', '0' ], [ [['The state news agency RIA-Novosti quoted Rosaviatsiya', 6]], '28805461', '0' ], [ [['measure all but certain to fail in the face of bipartisan', 4]], '28771014', '0' ], [ [['matter what you do in this case', 5]], '28759848', '0' ], [ [['presume laws are constitutional', 7]], '28747556', '0' ], [ [['has destroyed 15 to 25 houses', 7]], '28744868', '0' ], [ [['short answer is yes', 7]], '28746030', '0' ], [ [['opportunity to tell the real story', 7]], '28731764', '0' ], [ [['entirely respectable way to put off the searing constitutional controversy', 7]], '28723797', '0' ], [ [['point of my campaign is that big ideas matter', 9]], '28712293', '0' ], [ [['As the standoff dragged into a second day', 7]], '28687424', '0' ], [ [['French police stepped up the search', 17]], '28667224', '0' ], [ [['Seeking to elevate his candidacy back to a general', 8]], '28660934', '0' ], [ [['The tragic story of Trayvon Martin', 4]], '28647343', '0' ], [ [['Karzai will get a chance soon to express', 8]], '28630306', '0' ], [ [['powerful storms stretching', 8]], '28493546', '0' ], [ [['basic norm that death is private', 6]], '28413590', '0' ], [ [['songwriter also saw a surge in sales for her debut album', 6]], '28413590', '1', 'Watch music videos from Whitney Houston ', 'on Yahoo! Music', 'http://music.yahoo.com' ], [ [['keyword', 99999999999999999999999]], 'videoID', '1', 'overwrite-pre-description', 'overwrite-link-string', 'overwrite-link-url' ] ]
    Loading...