Why Vivek Ramaswamy Is a Bully on the Debate Stage

The Republican debates have devolved into schoolyard taunting and outright bullying among the presidential candidates.

It’s “a very primitive strategy” for those seeking the highest office in the land, according to Jaana Juvonen, a professor of developmental psychology at UCLA who studies bullying among youth. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

The worst offender is Vivek Ramaswamy, who spent the last debate swiping at Nikki Haley by raising her daughter’s presence on TikTok and calling her (and seemingly Ron DeSantis) a “Dick Cheney in 3-inch heels.”

Ramaswamy’s bullying tactics may be outrageous, but they’re not entirely original, Juvonen noted in an interview with POLITICO Magazine.

“He has a role model — Trump — who did it masterfully,” she said. Like the former president, she added, “Ramaswamy is not trying to be a likable person. He is simply trying to appear powerful.”

So, how should a 2024 candidate respond if they start to get bullied on the debate stage Wednesday night?

Juvonen has some ideas on what not to do, most of all: Don’t have an emotionally charged reaction and don’t simply express submissive behavior. “Those are the two most maladaptive strategies,” she said. Instead, try to level with the person who was hostile to them. “If we think about Ramaswamy’s behavior as being bullying, Nikki Haley’s very calm response, ‘You’re scum’ may have worked,” she said.

(In response, Ramaswamy senior adviser Tricia McLaughlin said, “What an abject embarrassment to journalism. Of course, POLITICO won’t mention that in every single one of the last debates Nikki has called Vivek 4-letter-words. But, sure, her two X chromosomes make her a real victim. ... If you can’t take the heat stay out of the kitchen.”)

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

You study teenage behavior and bullying in particular. Do you think what Vivek Ramaswamy has done on the debate stage is an example of bullying?

Definitely. In terms of him attacking his competitors and attacking them with personal information, like in Haley’s case talking about her daughter. Bullies often strategize to hurt their victims in ways that really get to them. Finding their weak positions and obviously, in this case, family and children.

Research on youth shows that status and respect can be gained not only by bullying but also by being a prosocial and charismatic leader. The question is why the candidates do not use such strategies. They do require more skill than bullying.

Would you say he’s acting like a teenager when he squares off this way with Nikki Haley and others?

He is definitely using these strategies, hostile strategies to gain power, and that’s what bullying really is all about: to gain power and status.

And obviously, he has a role model — Trump — who did it masterfully, masterfully, in the sense that by doing that, he did not lose popularity but seemed to be gaining popularity. When I talk about popularity, that is not about likeability. That’s a really important distinction. Popularity is status, and you can be a high status and popular, cool person without being liked. Ramaswamy is not trying to be a likable person. He is simply trying to appear powerful.

It is probably no coincidence that Ramaswamy attacked Haley the most. Trump first attacked women also. Women are generally perceived to have less power and hence they make “safe” victims. I believe Haley may be proving otherwise.

You mentioned Donald Trump’s bullying in previous years — you think we’re seeing his influence today?

I think both of them are trying to put other people down in order to gain power. So that’s kind of a very primitive strategy that we see among politicians. That is, you’re not competing with expertise. You’re not competing against one another with knowledge. This is all about sort of huffing and puffing.

And obviously Trump managed to do this well before, and it seems to me that he’s relying on similar strategies this time around. Ramaswamy, I think, is essentially modeling the behavior and trying to put his competitors down the best he can.

Should other candidates bully him back, or should they respond differently? Was Nikki Haley right to call him “scum”?

Yeah, that’s a tough one. Based on research on bullying, we know more about what doesn’t work in terms of trying to get back at the bully. One is an emotionally very charged reaction, kind of blowing up. That doesn’t work, and neither does submissive behavior. That is just taking it and not kind of weathering or withdrawing from the situation. Those are the two most maladaptive strategies.

What works is a little less clear. If you think about bullying being about power dynamics, then one strategy might be for politicians to level with the person who was hostile to them. If we think about Ramaswamy’s behavior as being bullying, Nikki Haley’s very calm response, “You’re scum,” may have worked. It is not emotionally charged, but it is basically, “Hey, you’re calling on me or you’re, you’re putting me down. I’m going to respond.”

One would think that they need to do more than just engage in bullying behavior, but really try to do more to appeal to their audiences. I think Nikki Haley is trying to show off her expertise, so knowledge is power in that sense. Because if it’s just back and forth, calling names, that’s not going to go very far.

When does bullying go too far?

Well, you know, in a democracy with adults and experts in the political arena, that bullying strategy would be a really juvenile and very primitive tactic. It suggests that there’s nothing else that you can compete with. Bullying as a strategy to win votes is an incredibly low strategy. It has worked in the past. Whether it continues to work remains to be seen.

Especially during times of uncertainty, with economic uncertainty in the minds of American voters, that’s when people — whether we’re talking about kids or we’re talking about adults — want to find a powerful leader.

Bullying has no place in political debates and especially in presidential debates. Compared to other democratic countries, where else would we see such behavior? I never witnessed or heard of any such behavior in Finland, where I am from, and believe that in lots of European nations that would also be the case even today.

Who was a bigger bully, Trump or Ramaswamy?

It’s probably slightly different when we talk about bullying among kids or teenagers as opposed to bullying tactics being used by politicians. I would imagine that in the case of Nikki Haley, that kind of very personal attack, at least among women voters would gain sympathy.

Name-calling seems kind of harmless. But I have to say I’m amazed if that is a strategy that can work in the political arena. Going after Haley’s daughter may get more sympathy from the audience. Name-calling doesn’t get sympathy but why it seems to be working is a big puzzle to me.

Should we be worried that our kids are watching these debates and are being encouraged to bully others?

Absolutely. Absolutely. We had actually made a lot of progress on bullying in schools in particular, before Trump’s successful candidacy. And when he continued his behavior as president, it really sort of transformed schools back to where we had started.

There’s no question that powerful public individuals, our prime role models, are the influencers. When adults in powerful positions are engaging in that behavior, that gives the kids the right to use the same behavior. If anything, what they see is only the benefits of the behavior, never the downsides. So this has been horrible all around.