Money, Divorce and Prenups with Deveney Wells-Gibson
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On today's episode of the 5 Things podcast: For every two marriages in America there is one divorce that's why Deveney Wells-Gibson, a divorce lawyer from San Diego has dedicated her career to the prenup. Wells-Gibson and 5 Things Sunday host James Brown explore divorce and prenups from her point of view.
Show notes:
Bowling Green National Center for family and marriage research
Deveney Wells-Gibson's Instagram
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Hit play on the player above to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript below. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
James Brown:
Hello, and welcome to 5 Things. I'm James Brown. It's Sunday, February 12th, 2022. Happy Super Bowl Sunday. I'm picking the Eagles to convincingly beat the Chiefs today, 38-17. Like so many other Americans, my girlfriend and I will be heading out sometime this weekend. We'll be celebrating Valentine's Day a bit early, that dreaded made up holiday that so many of us overspend on. We have reservations at a trendy new restaurant that serves mocktails because she doesn't drink. She's pumped about it. These plans sent me down a bit of a Google wormhole about love, marriage, and divorce.
According to 2021 census data analyzed by Bowling Green University's National Center for Family and Marriage Research, there were about two marriages for every one divorce in America. According to CDC data, there were at least 800,000 divorces per year between the year 2015. That number has dropped in recent years, just under 700 divorces happened in 2021, and boy, divorces can be destructive. My guest today knows that better than most. She's a lawyer from San Diego known as the Prenup Queen. Today, we discuss how she got that nickname. Prenuptial agreements in divorces with Deveney Wells-Gibson. Deveney Wells-Gibson, welcome to 5 Things.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Thank you. Glad to be here.
James Brown:
Glad you're here. Let's start from the beginning. How did you become a Prenup Queen?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Man, beginning, beginning, when my parents got divorced, and it affected my mom in a way that it shouldn't have. And to the point where she was working three jobs to care for me. That's how it originally began. I'm also a divorce attorney, so I practice family law here in San Diego, California. And just seeing my divorce clients, seeing how it's affecting them, seeing how it's affecting their children if children are involved, and just thinking of ways to help mitigate the effects that divorce can have on people.
And one of the ways to do that is they're a prenup. So, prenups obviously don't mean you don't get divorced, but should one occur, it helps them talk about how finances should be looked at. Because once you get divorced, there is no love, there is no care. It's all resentment, it's all ego, and it's just emotions. So I originally wanted to be an attorney to help the kids through a divorce, and I just felt like prenups were almost like a backend way of doing that. But me as a family law attorney in and of itself is really how I'm serving my purpose.
James Brown:
That's got to be a tough thing to watch. As an attorney, how have you seen divorces affect people?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
In several ways, and I mostly talk about how it hurts people financially, but when you're going through divorce, emotions. It affects people emotionally. A lot of people end up having to go through therapy to cope with the divorce process or to cope with how the divorce affected them, especially for people who are religious, it's testing your faith, testing your beliefs. Mentally, divorce is a process, and it takes a long, long time, especially when people are litigating and butting heads. Some people's divorces take years, and it's just something that's constantly on your mind throughout that span of time. But most importantly, what I like to focus on is financially. So the average cost of divorce is roughly around 17 grand. That's obviously-
James Brown:
Wow.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Yeah, if they go to court-
James Brown:
17 grand.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Each. Not just total. 17 grand per person.
James Brown:
Wow.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Yeah, and that's if there's no children involved. So once custody and visitation or child support starts to become an issue, that figure skyrockets. And so, my thoughts are just like that money can be going towards your children's education, vacations, your retirement, things of that nature. You could be doing so many better things than paying divorce attorneys. Don't get me wrong, that's my practice. It is how I obviously live and pay my employees, but I just believe there are times where the cost of divorce really... It's not necessary. It's really not. The second is when you're going through divorce, you're dividing assets. So, biggest one I like to harp on is retirement. Two different situations. Someone's a stay-at-home mom, they have no retirement, or maybe a very little retirement because they were working for five years, had kiddos, became a stay-at-home mom, they get divorced. Now what? Do they go back to work? Are they going to be able to retire at retirement age, because they didn't really have a retirement to begin with?
And so they're just in this really unfortunate circumstance in life and having to figure out how they're going to survive. On the other side, say, someone who has the retirement accounts, maybe they're in the military, they have a Thrift Savings Plan, whatever the case is, and then you have to split it based on however long the marriage was. So imagine having all this money in retirement account thinking you're going to retire at retirement age only for it to get split. Now what? When do you actually retire?
Do you take a second job? There's just so many things going on. Money going to attorneys, being split. It ends up being a mess and... Sorry. Statistically, divorce is one of the leading causes of bankruptcy. So I just feel like... And I love the idea of marriage, don't get me wrong. I want to be married, the whole shebang. But I do feel like sometimes people get into marriages without realizing that the divorce rate is almost half. So that means almost one in two people are going to get divorced, but they're not yet considering the consequences of a divorce. So my prenup queen journey is just trying to combat all that.
James Brown:
So I take it you're single.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Yeah, I am. I wear a ring on my finger, but I am definitely single. Yes.
James Brown:
Okay. As you unfurled all of those details about what the effects of divorce, I would think it would make you more hesitant to actually get married, instead, you still want to get married.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Oh, 100%. I am a believer of love, marriage, being one big happy union, but I'm also a believer of prenups. So when I go on dates and stuff, when I'm dating, and they're always like, "What's your Instagram account?" And I'm like, "The prenup queen." And they're like, "Oh, so we're getting a prenup?" "100%." And I say that because I have a business. I do have money and I want to protect that. I want to protect my future. I want to protect my children. There's so many things, financially, that I want to take care of, so that if a divorce happens, God forbid, I'm still going to be okay financially. It's not going to set me back. It's not going to set my kids back. It's not going to affect my kids. It's not going to affect my business. And those are the things I want to protect. Also because my business has employees and I want to make sure my employees are set, I just never want anything to affect other people.
James Brown:
How would a prenup save money?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Almost like an investment. The way I like to view it is the same reason why you have car insurance. So when I look at a prenup, you're paying here $2250. You're paying it once. If a divorce happens, instead of paying $17,000, maybe you just pay the court filing fees of $435. You already have all the issues outlined in your prenup. You submit it with the judgment paperwork, have the court sign it, boom, bam, done. So you're paying upfront the $2250 to save yourself, maybe, to save yourself the $17,000-plus later down the road. So that's the way I would say a prenup would help you save money in that regard.
James Brown:
What do your clients have in common?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
My prenup clients?
James Brown:
Yes.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Thinking about it... And I'm not saying this is a requirement to get a prenup, but I would say my clients right now, what they have in common, assets. They already have things they want to protect. So that's why, to them, it's important for the prenup, although I think all marriages should have one, whether you have something now or you have substantial assets. So I would say they already currently have assets. All of them without the exception of maybe 10%. They're all roughly around my age, which I think is really interesting. So I would say they're millennials, and they're viewing marriage and finances a little bit differently, maybe, than the older generations, which is why they're going for prenups, which I did see, statistically, that millennials and Gen Z... I think Gen Z, that's the generation right below us.
They're opting for prenups more than the older generations that came before us. So I would say they have that in common as well. Just a different perspective. That's all it is. It's not what the media has portrayed prenups to be, as in prenups automatically mean you're getting divorced. I think the newer generations are starting to see that prices aren't the same as what they were 20, 30 years ago. Things aren't the same. We're not able to retire the same. We can't really acquire the same assets like our grandparents were able to. So they have to take a little bit more precaution when it comes to their finances.
James Brown:
You just said that prenups are portrayed in the media in a way that you're not happy with. As a member of the media, feel free to open fire.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Oh, my God. I hope you don't take offense to that. I totally just meant that the way prenups have been previously glorified in the media was in a negative sense. It's always... And no offense to the white rich men, but it's always the white rich men who have tons of assets that are trying to protect from the gold diggers or trying to protect from the younger women. But honestly, they're for everyone. And there's so many benefits for a prenup outside of just divorce, but there's so many benefits that they will give to couples and individuals that just wasn't portrayed in the media. So the only thing we see in media is prenups and divorce. They go hand in hand, and it's not always the case. So I should say I just wish the media, when talking about prenups or whenever a prenup comes up, there's just a little bit more discussion behind it. Because some people have very valid reasons for wanting a prenup, and I just think it should be talked about more.
James Brown:
When you talk to a couple about these agreements, are they already prenup-curious? Have they already agreed to do it? Are they divided over the decision?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
I've definitely had people come in where the other spouse was divided or... I shouldn't even say divided. I would just say completely against it. And it's a process getting them on board. But I would say the reason why they were against it is because they don't understand the benefits of it. So once I explain like, "Hey, a prenup is supposed to be for both of you guys to come to terms on this. This isn't just one person creating an agreement and you have to sign it. It doesn't work like that. If you don't want to sign it, you don't sign it. But you can negotiate into it like, do you need spousal support? Do you need a compensation package, because the intent is you're going to be a stay-at-home mom." I portray prenups as it needs to be fair for both parties.
For it to even be valid and upheld in court, it has to be fair for both parties. So when they understand that fairness is involved, that I'm coming from a place of love and caring for each other, it lessens the emotions. It calms them a little bit more, and now they're a little bit more willing to negotiate, then we start talking about things, and then we get into the hypotheticals, and all of a sudden now we're laughing about certain things, and now we're happy, and now everyone's on the same page. It's certainly a process when one of the fiances is already not on board with the prenup, and it does take a little bit more caress to get them on board.
But for the most part, I would say when someone comes to me wanting a prenup, they've already discussed it with their other partner, and that's what I would encourage them to do. We are not trying to spring a prenup on somebody. That's just a bad foundation for the marriage anyways. It needs to be something that you all talk about. If someone's hesitant about it, that's fine, bring them in and we'll chat through it. But it should definitely be something that both are aware of what's going to happen. And then we do have to get both of them on the same page regarding how they feel about the prenup.
James Brown:
Among your prenup clients, I would imagine that some of those couples that are divided on it end up not marrying because they couldn't come to an agreement about this. Am I in the realm of possibility here?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
I have had a few situations that I know of so far where they ended up just not getting married. And I'm not in the business of ruining engagements, but I have had couples no longer get married because they realize like, "Whoa, the other person really didn't even want kids." And I'm just like, "How did you all not have this conversation already?" But they just realize things where they're no longer compatible, so they end up not getting married. They view finances very differently than the other person. They can't agree on how certain finances should be ran. And financial issues is one of the reasons for divorce, so they just opted to not get married. So going through the prenup process does sometimes highlight incompatibilities, and people just end up not getting married. It is true.
James Brown:
Have any guilt there?
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
No, because it's either they're going to get married, have these same issues arise, and then maybe have kids, and then they're going to get a divorce, so they're going to be back in my office regardless. But then it's affecting them in ways that it just shouldn't. And so, just not getting married to begin with is likely way better than them getting married, going through all that, getting divorced, and then affecting them, and then children, should they have children.
James Brown:
Any famous last words?
Speaker 2:
Everyone needs a prenup regardless of your age, regardless of your status. That's pretty much it. Get a prenup.
James Brown:
Deveney Wells-Gibson, thank you for joining me.
Deveney Wells-Gibson:
Of course. Thank you so much, James. I had fun.
James Brown:
If you like the show, write us a review on Apple Podcast or wherever you're listening. And do me a favor, share with a friend. What do you think of the show? Email me at jabrown@usatoday.com or leave me a message at 585-484-0339. We might have you on the show. Thanks to Deveney Wells-Gibson for joining me and to Celine Martin whose article inspired this episode, and to Alexis Gustin, Shannon Rae Green for their production assistance. For all of us at USA Today, thanks for listening. I'm James Brown, and as always, be well.
This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Money, Divorce and Prenups with Deveney Wells-Gibson
