Nassar survivor parents upset with Malcolm Gladwell, claim he used quotes out of context

DETROIT – Amid the storm of the Larry Nassar trial, Lisa and Kaylee Lorincz bonded with Kate Wells, a reporter from Michigan Radio.

After the trial, Wells and fellow reporter Lindsey Smith started working on a podcast about Nassar. Lisa Lorincz recounted how she dealt with the revelations that Nassar sexually assaulted her daughter.

Almost a year after Michigan Radio's "Believed" podcast, Lorincz – and other parents of Nassar survivors – are suffering renewed pain over the way a famous author used those interviews in an audio and print version of his latest book.

They claim author Malcolm Gladwell used the quotes out of context in his book "Talking to Strangers" to suggest parents enabled Nassar's sexual abuse by staying silent.

Gladwell used the audio with permission of Michigan Radio, but the reporters didn't know it was being used or how it was used. Neither did those whose voices were used.

"The past four years have been a roller coaster of emotions, and there seems to be no end in sight," Lorincz wrote in an email to Gladwell's production team. "When I learned of Mr. Gladwell’s audiobook, I was taken by complete surprise and, unfortunately, there’s no manual for how to navigate through all of this; I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy."

Even though Gladwell didn't use the names of the parents in his book, the use of the voices left no doubt who was talking. The problems continue two months after publication.

How it came together

Gladwell and his team wanted to turn the audiobook version into a more podcast-like experience.

More: New details of Larry Nassar abuse revealed in 'Believed' podcast

More: Michigan State to pay record $4.5 million fine in Larry Nassar sexual assault scandal

He sent emails in June to Michigan Radio bosses, including a note June 27 to Stephen Schram, the station's general manager.

"We would like to find a way to work with you to make this happen," Gladwell wrote. "We also believe that this excerpt would be a powerful marketing tool for 'Believed' podcast. In the chapter, I call the podcast 'brilliant' and present it as the definitive treatment of the Nassar case. We think if people hear the actual tape from the podcast, they would be far more interested in searching out the original than if I simply read the quotes in my own voice. We are also willing to make special mention of 'Believed' elsewhere in the audiobook. Most crucially, I'm going to drop a chapter of the audiobook in my 'Revisionist History' feed (1 million plus subscribers) and would happily give it a shout-out there as well. I'm a HUGE fan of that show, and think it deserves a wider audience."

Initially, Michigan Radio decided against sending the audio, then shifted gears, deciding the project was journalism.

On July 3, Schram gave Gladwell permission.

It's not unusual for journalists and organizations to ask Michigan Radio for audio, Vincent Duffy, the station's news director, told the Free Press. Because Michigan Radio is a public radio station, it tries to share as much as has been on the air as possible. He said he treated Gladwell's request like any other. He didn't notify Wells or Smith he was sharing the audio. The parents who gave the interviews were not told the audio was being shared.

"I've been here 12 years. It's never been the process or protocol to notify the reporters or the sources," Duffy said.

Michigan Radio did not get any money for the material, nor did it have any editorial control over how it was used or get to listen to a preview. That's common when audio is shared, Duffy said.

The fallout

At the end of August, Wells began getting texts from friends. Gladwell had shouted out "Believed" on his podcast as he talked about his new book. That made Wells happy, until mid-September when one of the people she had talked to for "Believed" told her Gladwell had used audio from parents and it was a mess.

After listening to the Nassar section, Wells and Smith, who were upset, called the parents to tell them that not only had the audio been used, but it was presented out of context. The pair and the parents found factual errors: Gladwell wrote that Nassar was well-known for treating pelvic floor dysfunction (many parents didn't know he was doing this), that it was an open-and-shut case and that many parents defended Nassar.

"I was dumbfounded," Smith said. "We owe so much to these parents for agreeing to talk to us" and for being so honest. "I feel horrible."

Lorincz was incensed. She emailed Gladwell on Sept. 20.

"I'm going to be brief. Someone played your audiobook for me and I do not want my voice on it. That was shared, in trust, to NPR and Michigan Radio. They betrayed that trust and I'll deal with that. I did not give you permission nor did you talk to me to get the context of my statements. As being someone deeply engulfed in the case from start to finish I can tell you that many of your statements are wrong! Not distorted, wrong!"

Gladwell said he's baffled by the criticism.

"In that chapter, I'm just trying to explain default to truth," he told the Free Press. That's a concept that says human beings tend to default to trusting others because they don't think deception could be a possibility or because there's insufficient evidence to distrust. The section of the book talks about Jerry Sandusky, the pedophile Penn State football coach, then Nassar, and it uses the parents quotes to further Gladwell's argument.

The author said he didn't reach out directly to the parents because he thought the "Believed" podcast had done such a great job and because the Nassar section was just a couple of pages in the book.

"I was presenting the same quotes in the same context as the 'Believed' podcast," Gladwell said. "I was supporting and explaining the role the parents played and why it would have been hard to speak out. The last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone unhappy."

Michigan Radio 'betrayed'

On Sept. 27, Michigan Radio lodged a complaint with Gladwell, sending a letter from Schram and Duffy:

"We are extremely disappointed in the manner and use of the audio clips, after you had such praiseworthy things to say over the phone and via email about 'Believed.' Based on our level of cooperation and your distinction as a journalist, we expected better.

"We feel betrayed by the use of the audio clips in the out of context manner in which they were presented. It was our impression that the cuts would be used in a supportive manner as the material was originally presented in our podcast."

In mid-October, Gladwell's production team told Lorincz it would remove all the audio and have Gladwell read the quotes.

Discussions continue between Lorincz and Gladwell. Gladwell's lawyer said he had a legal right to use the interview and wouldn't delete it.

Michigan Radio had the legal right under copyright law to share the interview, even without notifying the parents, said Jonathan Weinberg, associate dean for research and faculty development and professor of law at Wayne State University. When they did the interview, they created a "joint work" under copyright law, which either side could share.

"In retrospect, this is a case of miscommunication between Michigan Radio and the people quoted," Gladwell said. "My assumption was they had been contacted."

"In retrospect, I would have let Kate and Lindsey know," Duffy said. "We are still extremely proud of the podcast."

"I think we as a shop have learned from this," Smith said. "This trust (between reporter and source) is so important. It's the heart of the work we do."

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This article originally appeared on Detroit Free Press: Malcolm Gladwell: Larry Nassar survivor parents upset with quote usage