“Ominous sign”: Legal experts say Jack Smith "closing in" after piercing Trump’s “inner circle”

Special counsel Jack Smith's team has asked witnesses about a call on which former President Donald Trump pressured former Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey to overturn his 2020 election loss and has shown an interest in Trump's "efforts to conscript" former Vice President Mike Pence into helping him, according to The Washington Post.

Trump in late 2020 urged Ducey to find enough fraudulent votes to overturn his narrow loss in the state, three sources told the Post, echoing his call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" the necessary votes to also reverse his loss in that state.

Trump also repeatedly asked Pence to call Ducey and urge him to find evidence backing his widely debunked fraud claims, according to the report. Sources told the outlet that Pence called Ducey several times about the election but did not pressure the governor.

Related

"Indictment 2.0": Experts say Smith may be preparing new Trump charges as grand jury probe resumes

Pence told CBS News on Sunday that he "did check in" with Ducey but "there was no pressure involved." Pence added that he also doesn't "remember any pressure" by Trump.

Ducey described the "pressure" to a prominent Republican donor earlier this year, the donor told the Post, and the account was confirmed by others with knowledge of the call.

Ducey told the donor that he was surprised Smith's team had not yet inquired about his calls with Trump and Pence, though he did not record the call. It's unclear if Smith's team has contacted Ducey since the meeting with the donor.

Smith's team has asked witnesses about Trump's calls to governors, including one to Ducey, sources told the Post, though it's unclear how those calls figure into their probe. Prosecutors have also shown interest in Trump's efforts to get Pence to help him.

Want a daily wrap-up of all the news and commentary Salon has to offer? Subscribe to our morning newsletter, Crash Course.

A spokesman for Trump told the Post that the former president should be credited for "doing the right thing — working to make sure that all the fraud was investigated and dealt with."

Ducey — as well as hundreds of other Republican officials, judges and investigators — has repeatedly refuted Trump's claims of fraud.

"Amazing that we're still learning new ways that Donald Trump abused his power to try to reverse an election loss and keep himself in power, in this case by pressuring the governor of Arizona to overturn that state's results," tweeted former federal prosecutor Noah Bookbinder, the head of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW).

While it's unclear if Smith has spoken to Ducey, "it seems probable and in any event he has the story through Pence (who has testified) and others who were on the call," added former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman.

CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen, who served as Democratic counsel in Trump's first impeachment, told CNN that the call "fits into a pattern" in which Trump also pressured other officials and the Justice Department.

"Remember, the Jan. 6th committee has made criminal referrals here, including the pressure campaign on the states," he said. "The Jan. 6th committee has said it presents overwhelming evidence. I do think it's a strong case and that the special counsel will likely charge the former president," he added.

Pence testified before a grand jury for more than five hours in April.

Former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows also testified before the grand jury without Trump's knowledge, raising concerns among Trump's team that he may have flipped and is cooperating with prosecutors, though his attorney denied any plea deal.

Related

Legal experts: Mark Meadows may have outplayed Trump — and Jan. 6 indictment may be "imminent"

Prosecutors also reportedly met with former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani to discuss a proffer agreement, in which a person under criminal investigation agrees to provide prosecutors with useful information.

"It's typical in cases that prosecutors attempt to secure the cooperation of those also high up in an alleged criminal scheme," Eisen explained on CNN. "After Donald Trump, Giuliani is one of those who appears based on the evidence, to be most culpable. Typically, a proffer is followed by immunity. Often if you have a culpable individual, a plea bargain. We need to see what happens next with Mr. Giuliani, but it's another ominous sign for the former president that special counsel Jack Smith seems to be closing in."

Former Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine-Banks said the Giuliani interview shows that Smith's team is "moving pretty quickly."

"I would say we are getting closer and closer to another federal indictment, whether it's going to be for the fake electors, whether it will be for the New Jersey display of classified documents, whether it will be for more about what happened on January 6th for seditious conspiracy by the president himself in trying to overturn the election, we don't know," she predicted. "But the fact that you are at the level of Rudy Giuliani, which is getting pretty much into the inner circle, that means there is nowhere else to go."

Read more

about Trump's legal woes

• "Not a legal defense": Trump Jan. 6 lawyers "appear to have criminal exposure" as DOJ hauls in Rudy

• "This won't go well for Trump": Experts say Giuliani "trying to avoid indictment" by cutting a deal

• "She is a potential government witness": Top Trump campaign official cited in indictment revealed

• Confused Trump demanded "my documents" back — after lawyers warned him he'd be indicted: report