Pence the candidate vs. Pence the witness: Can he do both in 2024 election, Trump trials?

WASHINGTON − Mike Pence has said his highest goal for his 2024 presidential campaign is for Americans to understand why he chose loyalty to the Constitution over demands from his boss, Donald Trump, on Jan. 6, 2021.

That goal, however, may take him farther as a potential witness in the federal and Georgia indictments of Trump on charges he tried to steal the 2020 election than it has as a candidate hoping to deny Trump the 2024 nomination.

Still trailing many of his rivals in fundraising and polling, Pence has gotten more aggressive in pushing back on Trump’s claims, including asserting last week that “the Georgia election was not stolen,” despite what Trump continues to say.

But he continues to attempt a balancing act to preserve any chance of appealing to GOP voters while also following the law and burnishing his role in history.

Barbara McQuade, a former U.S. attorney and expert on Jan. 6 investigations, said calling Pence as a witness is a “very interesting and difficult question for the government.”

“On the one hand, he was in a unique position to observe Donald Trump on Jan. 6 and in the weeks leading up to that day. His truthful testimony would likely be helpful to the prosecution,” McQuade told USA TODAY. “On the other hand, as a presidential candidate who has been walking a very careful line so as to avoid offending Trump voters, he may be inclined to minimize some of Trump’s conduct.”

Pence, who did not cooperate with the congressional investigation into the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol and spoke to the federal grand jury only after fighting a subpoena, has said he is “more than happy” to testify if called by the special federal prosecutor.

“We will always comply with the law,” Pence said on CNN’s “State of the Union” this month.

Trump indictment cites Pence's notes

Norm Eisen, a counsel to House Democrats for the first impeachment and trial of Trump, called Pence a “critically important part of the narrative.”

The Justice Department’s case against Trump relies on Pence’s contemporaneous notes.

The sprawling indictment from the district attorney in Fulton County, Ga., describes Trump’s erroneous argument to Pence that he had the power to decertify the results yet insisted on playing “by Marquess of Queensberry rules," a reference to traditionally accepted rules of boxing. Trump wanted Pence to use his ceremonial role presiding over the congressional count of the electoral college votes to disqualify legitimate electors from some states.

Still, one commentator recently wondered whether a jury could “crack the code” Pence uses when talking about his former boss.

“Exactly how the former vice president really feels about Trump’s past actions and his fitness to again be commander-in-chief requires a legal decoder ring and a political magnifying glass,” John T. Bennett wrote in Roll Call.

What Pence has said about Trump

Pence has said he will testify, if called, but continues to assert it would’ve been better if prosecutors had let voters – not juries – decide if Trump’s actions were wrong.

Pence has shared with prosecutors Trump’s false allegations about election fraud but says he can’t testify whether Trump actually believed he’d lost the election.

Pence argues Trump’s actions disqualify him to be president but, as a condition of appearing at Wednesday's GOP debate, he’s agreed to support Trump if he’s the nominee.

Republican pollster Neil Newhouse said there should be little light between Pence’s presidential candidacy and his role as a witness against Trump.

Pence’s campaign message is that Trump doesn’t deserve re-election, Newhouse said, “and his experience from Jan. 6 and throughout the Trump presidency provide weight and credibility to his message.”

In fact, after this month’s federal indictment of Trump, Pence said he “in some respects” appreciated the development.

“Not because I welcome the indictment. I had hoped it hadn't come to this,” he said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “But now that this has come, I have had people coming up to me ever since that day and, in some respects, telling me that they didn't know. They didn't know what we went through. They didn't know about the stand that we took."

Trump accused Pence of being `too honest'

Pence’s campaign pitch is centered, in large part, on his character and always following the two guidebooks he kept on his desk as vice president: the Bible and the Constitution.

After Trump this month disputed having told his vice president he was “too honest” – a Pence recollection included in the federal indictment – his campaign began selling “Too honest” T-shirts and hats with Pence’s signature.

Trump’s “too honest” criticism is a powerful piece of testimony, said former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti. It will speak not only to Trump’s truthfulness but also his intent to defraud and deceive.

“Which is the most important and most challenging for the government to prove in a fraud case,” said Mariotti, now practicing at Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner LLP.

Mariotti, who believes Pence will be asked to testify in at least the federal case, said the former vice president will bring gravity to the witness stand because the Secret Service feared for his safety as the mob stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6. Trump supporters chanted “Hang Mike Pence” and erected a gallows outside the Capitol.

And while the defense could argue that Pence, as a 2024 campaign rival to Trump, has an axe to grind, any perceived bias won’t be as obvious to the jury as if someone such as former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi were testifying, he said.

But Trump’s lawyer, John Lauro, has said Pence will be Trump’s “best witness.” Despite the “constitutional disagreement” between the president and vice president, both believed there were “election irregularities,” Lauro said on CBS’ “Face the Nation” this month.

“One thing that Mr. Pence has never said is that he thought President Trump was acting criminally,” Lauro told NBC’s “Meet the Press.  “A technical violation of the Constitution is not a violation of criminal law.”

Pence both praised for Jan. 6 and heckled as `traitor'

On the campaign trail, voters interested in hearing from Pence or taking a selfie with him often praise his refusal to overturn the election results.

“I like that he supported our Constitution when it comes to Jan. 6,” said Don Thibeault, a retired educator who attended a Pence town hall in Meredith, N.H., last month. “I need to learn more about him. That’s why I’m here.”

But Pence has also been heckled as a “traitor” by Trump supporters and has repeatedly explained why he had no authority under the Constitution to do what Trump wanted.

The former college history major has taken to joking that he’s “actually just a frustrated history teacher.”

Polls continue to show that a majority of Republicans have a different view of history than he does.

Nearly six in 10 Republicans surveyed Aug. 10-14 in an Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll said Joe Biden was not legitimately elected.

Because of the impossible position that puts Pence in, political handicappers frequently write him off as a presidential candidate while noting his other important role.

“He’s looking a little better in history lately,” veteran GOP consultant Mike Murphy recently said in a preview of the GOP debate during the “Hacks on Tap” podcast he co-hosts. “But he’s a man with no country in this.”

Pence's relevancy tied to Trump

Pence can have trouble attracting media interest unless it involves Trump, such as when his former boss attacked him this month as "delusional."

“Pence never had a shot at this thing, so while Trump taking swipes at him doesn't exactly help his cause, it adds a patina of relevance that had been comically absent to date,” Liam Donovan, a Republican political strategist, wrote on social media.

During Pence’s appearance last Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” host Chuck Todd spent most of the interview pressing Pence about Trump.

“And believe it or not, I do want to try to ask you one question about something you did this week,” Todd said at the end of the interview, when bringing up Pence’s energy plan.

But before pivoting to policy, Todd had asked Pence if he considers himself a “MAGA Republican.”

“I'm a Christian, a conservative and a Republican in that order,” he responded. “I've always said that.”

On the campaign trail After breaking with Donald Trump, Mike Pence is selling kindness. Is anyone buying?

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Pence may have more impact as witness in Trump trials than in campaign