Purdue athletics under Mitch Daniels: Big Ten expansion pause? Will athletes become employees?

WEST LAFAYETTE - In the first part of the Journal & Courier's interview with outgoing Purdue president Mitch Daniels regarding college athletics, the former Indiana governor discussed the impact of Name, Image and Likeness, the transfer portal and why he didn't become more involved with NCAA issues and other topics.

In the second part, Daniels addresses Big Ten expansion during his tenure, the league's new media rights agreement and whether student-athletes will become employees.

Carmin: What do you know about college athletics as you leave office as opposed to when you started?Daniels: Oh, a whole lot. We talked about some of all the other things that go into it now. It's so much more than showing up for practice, playing the games or the matches, and by the way, doing your homework and it's so much more than that.

I'll never forget one of the first times I went to one of our wrestling matches. I’m sitting up in the bleachers and they say come down and sit on chairs with the team. I remember on one side of me was the full-time nutritionist and on the other side was the team trainer. I grilled them about their jobs, and I remember saying to the nutritionist, ‘In high school wrestling, nutrition meant eating Jell-O before the weigh-in,’ so you don't miss weight, right? And they tell me what they did and I get like 15 minutes of, ‘Holy cow, this is just for one sport?' I certainly learned a lot and came to appreciate that.

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I suspected it, but I wouldn't say I knew in any way what it takes in terms of talent, diligence, and concentration for a student-athlete to compete at the D-I level and the level we compete at. One thing I learned, with very few exceptions I've ever found, is it's a total commitment, especially since we do insist that they are students too.

I've gone a couple of times and the answer was always the same so I stopped asking. A couple of times at the meeting of the Leadership Council, it's team captains and people like that. I remember asking a time or two – ‘I'm just curious how many of you live with somebody who's not an athlete?’ Not too many. ‘How many of you would say that your best friends on campus are not athletes? How many of you are heavily involved in at least one extracurricular activity that's not athletic-related?’

When you realize what it takes to compete at our level, these young men and women have to zero in on that. On the one hand, I just admire the heck out of that. The discipline that it takes and on the other, I'm a little bit rueful about it. There's a lot about the college experience that they have to forego in order to do what they do. I came to learn a lot about that.

Carmin: Since you came into office, the Big Ten has expanded twice. You've added two teams, you add two more. Why is this a good thing for the league? Now, I ask this question because I want you to take the financial part out of it initially - how does the Big Ten benefit from being at 16?

Daniels: If you're asking if it weren't for the money should we do it? The answer is I don't think so.

Carmin: Ok, that's fair.

Daniels: There's that old Hoosiers saying, the old Hoosiers philosopher supposedly said - 'When a fella says it ain't the money, it's the principle of the thing. It's the money.’ I'm not faulting that. To do what we do and do it without subsidy from the university and so forth, the success of the Big Ten Network and now beyond that the broader network agreements that they’re reaching is incredibly important.

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You have to remember that some of the folks who are so eager to sort of move to a pay-for-play system I wish would reflect for a minute on the fact that we're not an NFL team, we're not an NBA team. They don't have soccer and tennis and track and field and all these other sports to support.

When you talk about expansion, it's served important purposes. Certainly, the eastward expansion was a little awkward, but I think that hasn't worked out badly. Now, the grab for the LA market and my own personal view – a good time for a timeout. Let's see how we can digest this situation, let's at least see how we intend to because I don't think anybody has yet and I haven't seen a plan for what that world would look like. I mean, I don't think we're going to send our softball team to LA on a frequent basis to just be a little flip about things but, I think it would be wise to, at least, have an agreed-upon design for the 16 before we plunge ahead to some bigger number.Carmin: Well, your commissioner has mentioned 20.Daniels: I know, and that might be the right answer. I can't say it's not. I think the westward move is a much longer move, not just in mileage, but in concept than the expansions we've seen over the previous 10 years. I just think caution would be in order here. There's not that much more money in it, I don't think. People have somewhat overrated and overstated in going beyond 16. I think people have a little bit overestimated the incremental money of the LA schools. It's real. It's not as big as some people have thought beyond what we would have had anyway.Carmin: So it doesn't average a billion dollars a year?

Daniels: I'm not talking about the total; I'm talking about what it means to the individual schools when it filters down. It's more, but it's not massively more.Carmin: You would have to define massively because right now, I think schools …Daniels: It's a few million more a year. But in the context of we're already over $100 (million).

Carmin: When you say $100 (million) …

Daniels: I’m talking about the Purdue athletic budget ($102 million in 2019-20, the last non-COVID year available). I'm just trying to roughly size it for you. Yeah, we'll notice it. You're not going from 100 to 200 or 100 to 150 or something like that. And if, which I think is highly likely, more of that money gets shared with at least the revenue-producing athletes, then you're not necessarily moving way ahead. I'm not saying 18 is wrong. I'm not saying 20 is wrong. Others will make those calls. I just think that we can … let’s get the rules of engagement set. Let's get comfortable with the latest move first. I just think that it would be prudent.

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And I've expressed that inside (the room) and by the way, I can tell you, in that view, I am far from alone in the Big Ten. There are many others who have said similar things when we're together.Carmin: Are we on a path where the athletes will be basically receiving money from the athletic department, part of that TV money? Are we headed down that path?Daniel: I think it's highly likely and by the way, we've just been ordered to pay cash right now for academic support. We've already taken step one and I think the logic has won out legally, and then the court of public opinion will take you in that direction.

Carmin: That's something that wasn't going to happen when you started.

Daniels: That's absolutely right. They were students who were athletes. That's the way it's always been, that's what we imagined. If there's a very high likelihood that within a few years you'll understand at least in the revenue sports, you'll understand them as employees who happened to be students.Carmin: But will they be employees?Daniels: Well, I think there's a very good chance of that. Those that have advocated for these changes, that’s what they want to do. They want the athletes to be employees and by the way, unionized employees. I'm not certain that'll happen, but I think it's an as likely outcome as any.

Carmin: Is there a slippery slope in that?

Daniels: I think we’ve already started slipping.

Carmin: Isn’t there a give and take when people become employees? There's different rules.

Daniels: You read my column (Washington Post). I haven't come to any different conclusions. I think it’s fairly likely you wind up there. I'm not saying it's the wrong answer. I am just saying it’s not college sports as we've known it - it's something different. And maybe that's the right thing. So please note, the more that happens – we’re paying $5,940 (Alston academic money) - when that becomes a much larger number by one path or another, once again, this idea that this new TV thing was a giant windfall but it will be somewhat smaller. And we still want to put a quality soccer team on the field, etc.Carmin: Now, (athletic director) Mike (Bobinski's) contract is up after ’24. Any extension in the offering, what's the discussion, or is this something you handle?

Daniels: That'll be for others to decide. I'm just going to tell you - if I were here, I would be urging him to stay and urging the board to renew him. I just think he's done a terrific job. He'll have something to say about it. I don’t know if they'll be able to talk him into it. But he's done a terrific job in every dimension that I would hope an AD at Purdue would make and I think he's built a great team over there.

Carmin: When were the presidents brought into the recent expansion discussion? How far in the process did you guys know what was happening or going to happen?

Daniels: Fair question but I don't think I’d better talk about inside baseball.

Carmin: That's why I asked the question – I want inside baseball.

Daniels: Well, OK, I haven't ducked any yet.

Carmin: Was it a week or a month in advance? Two months in advance?

Daniels: It was in advance. I don't think I should talk about that.

Carmin: But in your mind was it an easy yes because of the financial impact?

Daniels: I don’t want to talk about that. What happens in those meetings should stay there.

Carmin: What has been or what will be your best advice for the new president (Mung Chiang) regarding athletics?

Daniels: It’s for him to decide, I will say. I think I'll certainly tell him this is how I've looked at it. No. 1, keep reminding people of the standards Purdue has always lived by and second, do anything they ask you to do, but don't hover. As much as I would enjoy it, I've never - maybe once (laughing) - I've never gone to practice. I don't think I've ever intruded - I spout off to Bobinski – but I don't send plays in as big a fan as I am. I think Mung will see that intuitively.

Whenever they've asked me to go somewhere or talk to a recruit, it’s been yes every time that I can remember. I've tried to discipline myself despite my enthusiasm not to get in their business. I think I've kept to that, and I will certainly suggest to Mung, that's the way to do it.

I have paid a lot of attention. We have regular meetings and (Bobinski) has walk-in privileges. I want to make sure I never slow anything down if they've got something they want to do or some issue they want to solve. I’ll always be available and do everything you're asked to do. But don't cross the line into micromanagement or meddling.Carmin: What's your next job?

Daniels: I don't know.

Carmin: Oh, you know. You just won’t say it.

Daniels: I really don't know. I haven't heard from anybody. I'm not under pressure particularly to do something. It might be that I just take a little time and goof off a little. I'm thinking about maybe some writing but I honestly haven't made any arrangements yet. I'm not trying to be coy. I just don't know. I'm not done with this.

Mike Carmin covers Purdue sports for the Journal & Courier and USA Today Sports Network. Email mcarmin@gannett.com and follow on Twitter and Instagram @carmin_jc

This article originally appeared on Lafayette Journal & Courier: Big Ten expansion: Will Purdue athletes become employees?