Newsom, DeSantis have contentious debate over homelessness, crime, book bans and more

Is Gov. Gavin Newsom running for president?

That was the question on many people's minds when the so-called "Great Red vs. Blue State Debate" with Fox News' Sean Hannity was announced, pitting the Democratic governor of California against Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida and current Republican presidential candidate.

Another way to phrase that question, as Newsom put it at the top of the debate, is "What are we actually doing here?" Why are we spending a random Thursday night watching two men on a debate stage who are not running against each other — one of whom's not running for anything?

According to Newsom, his purpose was to "tell the truth about the Biden-Harris record, and compare and contrast Ron DeSantis's record and the Republican Party's record as a point of contrast that's as different as daylight and darkness."

In other words ... Newsom wasn't on the debate stage because he's launching a "shadow campaign" for the presidential nomination, as DeSantis repeatedly stated, but to serve as a proxy defending Biden's record.

Meanwhile, DeSantis is polling second in the GOP primary field, with just 9% support, behind Trump with 68% support.

"There's one thing that we have in common, is neither of us will be a nominee for our party in 2024," quipped Newsom at the start of the debate.

But for the most part, the debate between the two governors centered on criticizing the policies in each other's states, while talking over each other and hurling insults. And while Hannity started the debate by stating he would be "moderating this debate, not a part of this debate," and that the questions would come from "well-sourced, fact-centered perspectives," he also admitted that it is "widely known that I am a conservative," and at times the questions seemed to skew that way. Newsom was often asked to defend his record or explain a negative data point about California, while DeSantis was mostly asked questions that were less challenging in nature.

So if you missed the debate (it was available to watch on Fox News, on the Fox News website with a cable subscription, or audio-only through Fox News Radio), you didn't really miss much. But below are a few key takeaways for Californians wondering how their state fared in the "Great Red vs. Blue State Debate."

Are people leaving California for Florida?

According to Hannity and DeSantis, people are leaving blue states like California in droves and moving to red states like Florida, a claim Newsom said "would be fun to fact check."

Those ex-Californians include Newsom's father-in-law, DeSantis pointed out.

"I was talking to a fella who had made the move from California to Florida, and he was telling me that Florida is much better, governed safer, better budget, lower taxes, all this stuff, and he's really happy with the quality of life and then he paused and he said, 'Oh, by the way, I'm Gavin Newsom's father-in-law,'" DeSantis said.

California is experiencing a net decline in total population for the first time in many years, but as a percentage of the state's total population, the number of people leaving for other states is relatively small. Last year, about 29,000 Floridians moved to California, while 51,000 people moved from California to Florida, according to the Los Angeles Times. But when those numbers are taken as a percentage of each state's population, those numbers are pretty similar.

Affordability, taxes, gas prices

The two also went back-and-forth over taxes and affordability in their two states, arguing over who makes things worse for the working class in their states. DeSantis compared Florida's nonexistent income tax to California's tax rates, which are higher than Florida's in every category except for property taxes.

Newsom said the difference came down to Florida having a regressive tax rate and "taxing low-income workers more than we tax millionaires and billionaires in the state of California," while DeSantis responded that part of why people are leaving the state is due to the higher taxes.

"How does paying $7 in gas help working people?" DeSantis said.

According to AAA, the average gas price in California was $4.85 on Thursday, compared to a national average of $3.25.

Later in the debate, Hannity asked Newsom if he could "name one source of energy that you can bring online in the next three to six months that would be as inexpensive for the people in this country as fossil fuels."

Newsom responded by calling DeSantis a hypocrite for campaigning for a fracking ban and against offshore oil drilling, and also "running away from climate change," which DeSantis called "just more lies."

'Don't Say Gay' bill; gender-affirming care in California

In one example of the ways that Hannity’s questions for DeSantis seemed to tee up the Florida governor, while questions for Newsom seemed intended to challenge, Hannity asked DeSantis: “Should schools be focused on reading, writing, math, science, computers, history computers, and maybe leaving values to parents, to religious institutions, or is it the role of the school?”

Last year, DeSantis signed legislation — dubbed the so-called ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill by opponents — which limits instruction in public schools in Florida about sexual orientation or gender identity. It bans the topics entirely in kindergarten through third grade and says they can be taught in higher grades only in a way that is "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards." The ACLU and some teachers have said this will have a chilling effect, making LGBTQ+ students scared to speak up and effectively barring the topic in schools altogether.

“The role of the school is to educate kids, not indoctrinate kids,” DeSantis said, replying to Hannity's question about values. “It's not to impose an agenda. It's to do the basics. And what we said in Florida is it's inappropriate to tell a kindergartener that their gender is a choice. It's inappropriate to tell second grader that they may have been born in the wrong body. Now California has that, they want to have that injected into the elementary school.”

“We have sex education in middle schools, in high schools where it's appropriate. This is a ginned-up, made-up issue to divide this country,” Newsom said.

Referring to California’s sanctuary policy for transgender youth seeking gender-affirming medical care, DeSantis called the policy “radical,” arguing it allows “people from out of state to go around their parents’ backs and get life-altering surgeries.”

“These kids just want to survive. Where’s your decency and humanity?,” Newsom responded.

CalMatters reported that a bill passed by the California Legislature and signed by Newsom in September will (among other things) bar the arrest or extradition of a person who provides gender-affirming care that's legal under California and federal law. It will also ban enforcement in California of other states' laws that allow children to be taken away from parents who authorize such care.

Homelessness in California

DeSantis and other Republicans often point to the rate of homelessness in California’s major cities — which is higher than the national average — as an example of failed “leftist policies,” and DeSantis was no exception on Thursday night.

“You know, California does have freedoms that some other states don’t. You have the freedom to defecate in public in California. You have the freedom to pitch a tent on Sunset Boulevard. You have the freedom to create a homeless encampment under a freeway and even light it on fire,” DeSantis said.

The Public Policy Institute of California reported that the state has 30% of all homeless people in the United States, despite having just 12% percent of the nation's population. The rate of homelessness in California — 44 people out of every 10,000 — is more than twice the national rate. It's also the highest among the 50 states, exceeded only by the District of Columbia, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development found.

Newsom defended the actions California has taken on homelessness and added, referring to DeSantis: “I love the rant on freedom. I mean, here's a guy who's criminalizing teachers, criminalizing doctors, criminalizing librarians, and criminalizing women that seek their reproductive care. You're making it harder to vote. You're banning books. I mean, spare me this notion of freedom.”

That discussion then descended into the two men calling each other a “bully” repeatedly.

“You’re nothing but a bully,” Newsom said.

“You’re a bully,” DeSantis responded.

This article originally appeared on Palm Springs Desert Sun: Ron DeSantis, Gavin Newsom have contentious debate; Sean Hannity hosts