Springfield officer tells woman facing eviction to go to Eugene during live radio interview

Bernice Pogue recounts her experiences with housing and homelessness while sitting in her trailer Thursday in Springfield.
Bernice Pogue recounts her experiences with housing and homelessness while sitting in her trailer Thursday in Springfield.

As a woman and a Springfield police officer discussed what she could do with her trailer to avoid violating the city’s camping ban, he offered one solution: Go somewhere else.

“I don’t have a solution where you can park it, but I do observe when I drive to Eugene, that nobody seems to care at all about all this stuff happening in Eugene,” Officer Joseph Burke told Bernice Pogue, adding Springfield does care.

Springfield Police leadership declined interviews through a spokesperson and instead provided emailed comments to The Register-Guard.

Zak Gosa-Lewis, spokesperson for the Springfield Police Department, said command staff had reviewed the audio of the interaction.

No one at the department would comment on specific officer actions. SPD Deputy Chief Jami Resch said that's because Oregon law doesn't allow cities to comment on pending personnel matters.

She stressed it's important to the department that residents know "serving all of our community members respectfully is not only a value at our organization, it is also an expectation" and something SPD holds officers accountable for.

"We also understand individuals experiencing crisis are particularly vulnerable, and we continuously review our service and try to learn from each interaction," Resch said.

Law enforcement officials recognize the housing crisis is complicated, Gosa-Lewis said, but it’s their duty to enforce city code.

“We must balance our duty to enforce laws and applicable ordinances of the City of Springfield with the need to achieve appropriate and productive outcomes for all parties,” he wrote in an emailed statement to The Register-Guard.

Gosa-Lewis declined to answer questions about training on deescalation or other tactics. He also didn't address an offer for Burke to talk about the interaction.

Police Chief Andrew Shearer has previously told The Register-Guard he's trying to establish a culture of empathy.

Pogue and Burke’s emotionally charged conversation broadcast live Jan. 25 for nearly 15 minutes as part of a 90-minute interview on KEPW’s “Legalize Survival.” It ended with Pogue in tears as at least one of her children and two people with KEPW looked on.

Bernice Pogue flips through her records as she and her son, Andre Moulton, discuss their experience with housing from the living room of their trailer on Thursday.
Bernice Pogue flips through her records as she and her son, Andre Moulton, discuss their experience with housing from the living room of their trailer on Thursday.

Expert: Banishing people not considered best practice

Banishing a person from a city because they don’t have housing doesn’t follow the law and isn’t considered best practice, said Marisa Zapata, director of Portland State University's Homelessness Research & Action Collaborative.

Zapata said forcing people to leave their community can make it even harder for them to stabilize by separating them from their existing support systems. She added it’s especially harmful to disrupt kids’ social networks.

Best practices call for offering a person support and solutions, she said.

“The idea that you’re not offering resources and encouraging them to give up and leave their home community is not protecting and serving someone who is experiencing homelessness,” Zapata said.

Best practices in policing also are evolving to include more empathy and compassion.

A 2015 report from the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing, which many departments have looked to in the wake of calls for social justice reform, encourages departments to value not just educational achievements, but also socialization skills when hiring recruits.

One task force member recommended departments "look for the character traits that support fairness, compassion, and cultural sensitivity."

A notecard hung on a kitchen cabinet in Bernice Pogue's trailer reads: "The right to be heard does NOT automatically include the right to be taken seriously!"
A notecard hung on a kitchen cabinet in Bernice Pogue's trailer reads: "The right to be heard does NOT automatically include the right to be taken seriously!"

While Burke didn’t raise his voice, he repeatedly threatened a ticket, accused Pogue of fake tears, chided her parenting, and referenced her "losing (her) mind" and "behaving irrationally."

Shearer told The Register-Guard in 2021 he's trying to establish values within the department that include a culture of policing with empathy.

"Everybody we deal with has a story, and when a police officer is talking with somebody face to face … everybody has a backstory, and I think we need to police with a sense of empathy,” he said at the time. He added officers can't just look at situations as right or wrong and "need to give people latitude."

Burke also didn't offer Pogue information on services even though she repeatedly asks for solutions.

While interactions and appropriate responses vary, the department gives all officers a list of community resources, Gosa-Lewis said.

"Often, our officers will request additional support from our partners with CAHOOTS to support efforts to provide care and resources to those who may be in distress or facing challenging circumstances," Gosa-Lewis wrote in an email.

Bernice Pogue holds paperwork on Oregon landlord and tenant law while recounting her experience with homelessness and housing from the living room of her trailer on Thursday.
Bernice Pogue holds paperwork on Oregon landlord and tenant law while recounting her experience with homelessness and housing from the living room of her trailer on Thursday.

'I know the reality of what I'm facing'

Pogue and her kids have been homeless before. She sits on the Intergovernmental Housing Policy Board.

They’ve lived in the city for about 12 years. A section 8 voucher and some finagling got them in to a duplex in Springfield.

As the cost of living goes up and her PTSD makes it hard to work regularly, Pogue said she could see them heading back to homelessness. She decided to buy a truck and a camper trailer last year. She’s been working on downsizing and moving her family into it.

Pogue said she knows it won’t be easy to find a place for the RV and not everyone will understand her decision: She wanted to ensure her kids would have a roof, shower and bed. They’ve had to live in a car before.

“I don't ever want to be in that position again, ever,” Pogue said. “So yes, an RV was an answer for me, because I know the reality of what I'm facing.”

She joined the radio show to discuss some of her latest challenges, namely owning an RV when there’s no way for her to legally store it. As she was on the show, she heard a knock and saw a police officer at the door.

On the premise of responding to a neighbor’s complaint about a tank under the RV, Burke engages with Pogue for about 15 minutes. During the interaction, he admonishes her for an extension cord on the sidewalk, makes her aware of the city’s camping ban and suggests she leave and relocate to Eugene.

In the end, he gives her a verbal warning. After he leaves, the radio hosts ask her if she’s OK, and Pogue weeps.

The full recording is available in KEPW's archives. Select "Legalize Survival" and listen to or download the Jan. 25 show.

Julie Lambert, the radio show host and a local advocate for the unhoused, lamented the impact of camping bans on air after Burke left. She originally asked Pogue to be on her show after she saw a post on Facebook about the family falling back into homelessness. She described Pogue's reactions and emotional state as the "human cost" of camping bans.

“You could hear how hysterical she was," Lambert said. "She was just on her last rope. And the cop was just pushing her.”

Springfield revising camping ordinance, may not apply to vehicles

Burke repeatedly references the camping ban, but those city rules likely will change. Springfield's city council is considering changes to follow a new state law requiring reasonable restrictions on camping.

Springfield’s ordinance does not follow the federal court rulings or the new state law because it bans sleeping in anything from a sleeping bag to a lean-to or other structure on public property, the city attorney told officials last year.

Under federal court rulings in Martin v Boise and Blake v Grants Pass and the passage of House Bill 3115, cities must review and amend ordinances related to camping on public lands to include reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions.

For subscribers:Springfield, Eugene reexamining rules banning camping on public property

It isn't clear yet whether changes will apply to people living in vehicles parked in the street.

Officials already have discussed the reasons for the changes and a public engagement plan. They're set to look at examples of what other cities are doing on Monday.

Resources available

Springfield has programs and resources available to help people experiencing homelessness and assistance for low-income renters and homeowners.

They're outlined in a "Springfield Housing Strategy" document and include:

  • An overnight parking program that allows religious and social institutions and industrial sites to host up to three vehicles, campers or trailers for overnight shelter.

  • Rules temporarily allowing people to live in roadworthy RVS on private property with owner permission. There's more info on that program at springfield-or.gov/rv-occupancy/.

  • Financial assistance for home repairs.

The full housing strategy document, last updated in the fall, is available at bit.ly/springfield-housing-strategy-fall-22

Listen to the show

To listen to the full show, go to archive.kepw.org/ then select "Legalize Survival." The archives allow people to listen or download shows, and the interview was during the Jan. 25 broadcast.

Contact reporter Tatiana Parafiniuk-Talesnick at Tatiana@registerguard.com or 541-521-7512, and follow her on Twitter @TatianaSophiaPT. Contact city government watchdog Megan Banta at mbanta@registerguard.com. Follow her on Twitter @MeganBanta_1.

This article originally appeared on Register-Guard: Police officer tells woman in housing crisis to go to Eugene