Ukraine helps West rediscover its values – historian interview
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Yaroslav Hrytsak, historian and professor at the Ukrainian Catholic University, spoke in an interview with NV Radio on Feb. 25 about the challenges facing Ukraine and how it transformed and ‘rebooted’ the West by resisting Russian aggression.
NV: How have Ukraine and the world changed during this war?
Hrytsak: We realized that we’re not Russians and will never be with Russians again. Historians don’t like the word “never,” but we clearly understood that we’re not Russians, there is a gulf between us now. It’s very important that both the Russian imperial and Soviet heritages are fading, we can see it. It’s also important to me that the legacy of unfinished and unsuccessful transformation Ukraine has had for 30 years is fading.
We can see this from how the influence of oligarchs is decreasing and how the fight against corruption is picking up pace. I’ll put it this way: the past remains in the past. We don’t know what [will happen] in the future as it depends on the duration of this war and the price we’ll have to pay for victory. But we realize that we’re making a very sharp leap forward.
NV: What does it mean?
Hrytsak: We can use the following metaphor: we had a very bad marriage with Russia, but we’re finally getting divorced. It looks like a final divorce and we’re going back to Europe. Now there is no doubt that Ukraine is part of Europe. On the one hand, it certainly helps because we wanted it. But we also see that it very often hinders us as we’re accepted as part of Europe, part of the West, and due to this we become a victim of anti-U.S. sentiment, particularly when it comes to the “global south,” including in the Gaza conflict.
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To put it more geopolitically: we’re trying to get out of the risk zone in which we have been for the last 300 years, in the geopolitical fault line between Russia and the West. We’re striving to enter the peace zone, which is the success zone, what we call the West, i.e. the European Union and the United States.
I think this is perhaps the biggest change we could ever dream of. Perhaps it would take decades. Why is this war important? This is a tragedy, but it quickly accelerates the processes. In two or three years, we made the same journey that would normally take 20 or 30 years.
NV: Have we managed to get rid of our inferiority complex and victimhood narrative?
Hrytsak: We got rid of the inferiority complex as we were told this all the time. We ourselves took these conversations seriously that we’re not like everyone else. I’m afraid the war may [create] a complex of superiority in us, which I wouldn’t want either. But we understand we’re worth it. And not only we understand this, but also the whole world. In particular, admiration for Ukraine was global after the first weeks of the war, and everyone talked about it. We’re getting rid of this complex. We’re not inferior, we’re normal.
But on the other hand, we understand and it’s obvious that new victims [have appeared] in two years. And I don’t know yet how these victims will affect us, but it must be taken very seriously. In particular, this is what prevents us from going to this push, to which we’re forced to “come on, sit down at the table with [Russian dictator Vladimir] Putin, agree on everything.” The memory and blood of these victims prevent us from making such compromises. At least for now. I don’t know what sentiments will prevail in the future, because a lot depends on what happens at the front.
What particularly surprises me is that after two years of war, after these severe trials Ukraine has undergone, after huge sacrifices, public opinion is determined that we want victory, we believe in victory, and this victory will mean the return of our occupied territories. When and at what price is another question.
Believe me, it’s a miracle to have such a public opinion after two years of war.
If earlier, before the war, I set other countries as an example to Ukraine, now I set Ukraine as an example of behavior to other countries.
NV: We can see the transformation of Ukraine’s allies to being willing provide concrete support. Has Europe finally realized it lives in the shadow of the Russian threat?
Hrytsak: The war showed that the West exists. This is something that Putin didn’t believe in. He believed that the West, the European values, were all fiction. That’s why he dared to go to war, because he remembered what it was like in 2008 in the war against Georgia, what it was like during the annexation of Crimea, that, in fact, there was no reaction.
This made him believe that the West doesn’t exist, and that what does exist is very weak. I have to say this is one of Putin’s mistakes, because the West exists, and Ukraine united it.
I must say this is not the first time. We didn’t notice it the first two times, but a very strong Brussels-Washington line appeared for the first time in 2004, during the first Maidan [Orange Revolution], and in 2014, during the second Maidan. This didn’t happen before. It’s very important.
Europe and the United States often had very similar interests, but when it came to Ukraine, their interests were united. Having said that, I don’t think we have enough aid. I think both Europe and the West in general had a huge problem of not knowing what their future would be.
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We’re now seeing the United States becoming a dysfunctional democracy, and for a long time. It will be dysfunctional even after the elections. This raises questions about their future. We didn’t have questions about the European Union, but Brexit has exposed EU’s own fragility.
The formula in which the West exists, the European Union, is experiencing a crisis. Therefore, Europe needed something to reboot itself, a major challenge to overcome. I believe Ukraine has become this challenge.
I’m not saying that Europe is doing enough. It’s always slow and doesn’t do enough. But we can see now that so many prime ministers, heads of state, have come to Ukraine for the second anniversary [of the war]. The European elite (almost without exception) have a feeling that this war is long-term, and Putin is to be taken seriously. If they don’t help Ukraine now, the price of a future war with Russia will be much greater. I’m not saying this will instantly translate into military aid. Unfortunately, no, because these are still words, and we need actions. But at least what happened is important as the West is rebooting itself, and Ukraine is part of that reboot.
NV: How far are we from being generally accepted as realistic members of the European Union?
Hrytsak: I will rely on experts’ opinions. We had a conference with a generally positive outlook. We can probably seriously talk about membership in the European Union by the end of this decade, by 2030. I think this is a realistic scenario. If we take all the steps that are expected of us, the prospect of EU membership is quite real.
Instead, the prospect of joining NATO... It’s more problematic because of NATO structures, because of certain conditions, because Ukraine is waging a war, and it must be ended. We don’t know when we can end this war. We’re unlikely to be given membership now. But that doesn’t mean that we should stop pushing for it.
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The European Union is a near future prospect, while NATO remains a question mark.
I’ll tell you the following. I live both in Ukraine and abroad, I teach here and there very often. Earlier, I often had to show and tell where Ukraine is. I don’t need to do that anymore. Ukraine has become a subject and it’s known all over the world.
The process of decommunization has begun, no matter how strange it sounds, in the academic world, in particular in North America. U.S. historians and political scientists themselves believe that there are too many Russophiles in academia. And it’s necessary to decommunize these histories by introducing subjects from Ukrainian, Armenian, Belarusian, Kazakh and other histories.
NV: Will Europe or the Western world find the determination to set itself a goal of dismantling Putin’s Russia?
Hrytsak: This is the biggest question now. To be honest, the West doesn’t even think about it. That’s the biggest challenge, and that’s what we’ve been saying all the time that they must have a strategy to defeat Russia. They have a strategy to prevent Ukraine from losing, but they have no strategy for Russia to lose. Moreover, they’re afraid to even think about it.
Let’s take the example of [U.S. President Joe] Biden. Biden is a man who grew up during the Cold War. The main strategy of the Cold War was to deter the opponent. He believes the same should be done now: deterring Russia.
But it means the war will drag on for many years, without the prospect of victory. We’re becoming, relatively speaking, a purgatory for many years.
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I think our voice should become stronger. We must think about what to do with Russia so that we don’t have another [Soviet dictator Joseph] Stalin, or another [Soviet dictator Vladimir] Lenin, or another Putin after every defeat or after every reform attempt. As [Ukrainian cultural scholar] Dmytro Chyzhevsky said: Russia’s history is endless madness, with short bright intervals.
How to turn these short bright intervals into long pauses, or how to ensure that Russia no longer represses its citizens or doesn’t fight with its neighbors is a key question for the future. I hope the West will start asking this question one day, with our input.
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Read the original article on The New Voice of Ukraine
