Watch replay: Testimony resumes in Jennifer Crumbley's involuntary manslaughter trial

Jennifer Crumbley’s trial on involuntary manslaughter charges stemming from her son murdering four people at Oxford High School in November 2021 resumed Monday.

It is the third day of testimony after a jury was seated last week. Emotions have run high in the courtroom of Oakland Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews as prosecutors have shown multiple messages where Crumbley's son texted her about hallucinating and seeing demons while she and her husband were riding their horses, and video of the parents going into Oxford High School on Nov. 30, 2021, to discuss a troubling drawing their son made, just hours before the shooting.

Read more: Judge on historic trial of Oxford shooter's parent managing dust-ups, emotions in court

Jennifer and James Crumbley are the first parents in America to go on trial on charges seeking to hold them responsible for a mass school shooting. Their son Ethan pleaded guilty to killing four students and injuring seven other people in the rampage.

Watch replay of livestream here.

Monday afternoon, prosecutors showed video of the Crumbleys talking with investigators from the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office after the shooting. James Crumbley asked for water, saying he was “freaking out,” and an emotional Jennifer Crumbley could be heard saying “he’s never done anything bad.”

An investigator asked the parents what had happened that morning. As James Crumbley started telling about meeting with school counselors about their son “doodling on a test or a practice test,” Jennifer Crumbley interrupted and asked if they should get a lawyer.

“I think we probably should have a lawyer,” she said.

James Crumbley told his wife, “I think we can speak to the cops.”

A sheriff’s official told the parents that authorities needed to asses their son’s state of mind, determine if he had made any explosive devices, whether he could have hidden guns anywhere and if there were other victims.

Jennifer Crumbley described texting with her son, saying she sent him a text at 12:21 p.m. asking if he was OK and he told her he had just gotten back from lunch. She said she texted her son that he could talk to his parents, that they wouldn’t judge. Ethan Crumbley replied that he knew and added, “I love you.”

The parents talked about going to the school to meet with the counselor. The parents said school officials said he was welcome to stay at the school or they could have taken him home.

Jennifer Crumbley said: “And I really wish we …”

“Would have taken him home,” her husband said, as they completed the thought together.

At one point, the parents were taken into a room where their son was detained. As the parents were leaving, James Crumbley could be heard saying to his son repeatedly: “I love you.”

Counselor tells about calling parents to Oxford High School

Oxford High School counselor Shawn Hopkins, who met with Ethan Crumbley and his parents on the morning of the shooting, was the second witness to testify Monday.

He told jurors that after students were allowed back in class amid the pandemic, the school "saw a lot of depression, anxiety, suicide ideation and, unfortunately, suicide attempts."

This is an important detail because Hopkins has said that the reason he let the shooter stay in school on the morning he made a violent drawing of a gun was because he feared the shooter was suicidal. And, he has said, he thought the boy would be safer at school than at home alone, as his parents were planning on returning to their jobs that day.

Hopkins testified Monday about numerous red flags that went up about the shooter in the months and days before the rampage, stating that multiple teachers reached out to him with concerns about the shooter's behavior.

According to his testimony:

The shooter first landed on his radar on Sept. 8, 2021, when a Spanish teacher emailed him:

"Hi Shawn. Could you please touch base with Ethan Crumbley?" the teacher wrote. "In his autobiography poem, he said that he feels terrible and that his family is a mistake. Unusual responses for sure."

Hopkins replied that he would follow up, but the teacher later gave him more context about the incident, so Hopkins never followed up.

Two months later came another email from the Spanish teacher, again about the shooter.

"Hi Shawn. Ethan is having a rough time right now. He might need to speak with you," the teacher wrote on Nov. 10, 2021, just 20 days before the shooting.

Hopkins testified that he met with the boy and told him that he was there for him. He did not contact the student's parents because being sad was common for kids.

Nineteen days later came another warning, this one from an English teacher who said she spotted the shooter looking at bullets on his cellphone in class — one day before the shooting. At 9:34 a.m., the English teacher emailed three school officials, including Hopkins.

"Now that he's on my radar, I'm also noticing that some of his previous work that he's completed from earlier in the year leans a bit toward the violent side," the English teacher emailed.

The shooter was pulled from class.

According to Hopkins, Ethan Crumbley explained that he had gone to the shooting range with his mom over the weekend, that shooting is a shared hobby and that's why he was looking at bullets.

Hopkins said he was sent back to class.

Counselor did not 'specifically ask' parents to take shooter home

Hopkins said his next encounter with the shooter was on the morning of the shooting.

At 8:30 a.m., he read an email from a teacher sent about a half-hour before, saying: "Today he is watching videos" of a man "gunning down people."

"My first reaction was, here we go again," Hopkins testified.

Then came another email, this one at 9:32 a.m.

A math teacher found a troubling drawing the shooter had made on a worksheet. It showed a gun, a bleeding human  and the words, "The Thoughts wont' stop, help me."

He said he hoped the parents would take him home that day and testified he did not want Ethan Crumbley to be alone. Hopkins testified he “did not specifically ask them to take him home,” but did ask them to take him to get therapeutic help. Hopkins testified he told the parents he wanted their son to be seen that day, if possible. He said it “was made quite clear that it wasn’t possible to do that day” because they had to return to work.

Absent a disciplinary reason to keep Ethan Crumbley from class, Hopkins said he allowed him to go back. He testified Jennifer Crumbley asked if they were done and he responded: “I guess so.”

Hopkins wrote Ethan Crumbley a pass so he could go back to class and “just let him know I cared about him.”

Hopkins testified that his follow-up plan was to meet with Ethan Crumbley the next morning to see whether there had been any additional discussions at home about getting him help. If not, he testified, he planned to call Children’s Protective Services.

Under questioning from Smith, Hopkins testified he did not contact Jennifer Crumbley after getting an email from a teacher in September 2021 about a poem her son wrote about felling terrible and calling his family was a mistake.

Hopkins also said he did not contact Jennifer Crumbley after getting an email from the teacher earlier in November 2021 indicating Ethan Crumbley was “having a rough time” and talking with him.

Smith also questioned Hopkins about the drawing that included the gun. Hopkins saw a photo of the original drawing and an altered version. Smith asked if when Hopkins saw the gun drawn on the sheet it “was not enough to make you believe that Mrs. Crumbley’s son posed a risk to himself or other students, correct?”

“I wasn’t sure whether he posed a risk to himself and so that is why I called in the parents,” Hopkins testified. “I was concerned, and I wouldn’t call in parents unless I was concerned.”

Horse barn owner once said mom needed a police escort to visit

Kira Pennock, who owned the barn where the Crumbleys boarded their two horses, was the first witness Monday.

According to her testimony, Jennifer Crumbley spent $10,000 on two horses, and took horse riding lessons from Pennock about three times a week during the evenings and during the day on the weekends.

Pennock said the Crumbleys spoke frequently about their horses' health issues, paid by check for her services, spent $5,000 on each horse and sometimes drank alcohol at her barn.

Defense attorney Shannon Smith objected to the testimony about drinking, arguing that it was irrelevant.

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald disagreed. "If you're buying a $5,000 horse and drinking," it's relevant regarding their priorities as parents. The prosecution has long argued the Crumbleys paid more attention to their personal lives than they did their son.

The farm owner said that she met the Crumbleys' son only once, and that Jennifer Crumbley mentioned him once in awhile, "called him weird" and referred to him as an "oopsie baby."

"There was not really much talk of her son," Pennock said, and what there was "was nothing truly positive."

The defense argued the "oopsie baby" comment was irrelevant. The prosecutor moved on.

Pennock testified about the day of the shooting. That morning, she said, she learned the Crumbleys' horse Billy needed medication for mud fever and his legs were swollen. Jennifer Crumbley also had plans for a riding lesson that night, she told jurors, noting Crumbley contacted her after a morning meeting at her son's school, and told her that she would still be at her lesson and that her son was coming along.

According to Pennock, Crumbley explained that her son was having a "shit" day at school and showed her a photo of a violent drawing her son had made on a math worksheet that day. It was the drawing that prompted school officials to call in James and Jennifer Crumbley, featuring a picture of a gun and the words, "The Thoughts won't Stop, help me."

Pennock suggested her son could use horse therapy.

"He needs something," Jennifer Crumbley responded in a Facebook Messenger chat.

"Let's make him a cowboy," Pennock wrote back.

Pennock testified that later that day, when she heard there was a shooting at Oxford High School, she immediately thought it was Crumbley's son.

Why? prosecutors asked.

"It's not normal for someone to draw these things at school,"  Pennock testified.

At 4:07, she messaged Jennifer: "Is everything okay ... If you need anything please let me know."

At 4:42: Jennifer Crumbley wrote her back: "I need to sell my horses, STAT."

Pennock said she offered to buy the horses. Jennifer Crumbley told her she paid $5,000 for each horse, but that she wanted $8,000 each for them. Pennock said she became concerned that the Crumbleys might come to her barn and steal items.

The defense objected. The prosecution was instructed to reword the question.

Pennock testified: “I did not truly feel bad for Jennifer. I was upset that this had happened to all of the kids and families."

The jury also saw a string of Facebook messages between Pennock and Crumbley, during which Crumbley talked about needing $200,000 for a lawyer and selling her house to get money.

"I'm bawling right now ... My son ruined so many lives today," Crumbley wrote.

"I'm still in shock, too. Take it one day at a time ... I will take care of the boys," Pennock wrote back, referring to the Crumbleys' horses.

"Okay, thanks for not judging, unlike the whole world," Jennifer Crumbley wrote back.

"I know you and James and this doesn't even remotely make me think it's your fault. It sounds like Ethan was a troubled kid. It's unfortunate this happened," Pennock wrote back.

Another message from Jennifer Crumbley said, "I wish we had warnings. Something. He was a good kid that made bad decisions."

Pennock wrote back, "There probably were warnings, but nobody saw them. Hindsight is 2020." Later, she told Jennifer Crumbley not to come to her barn without a police escort. "I'm really sorry. I need to look after my business."

"Seriously? Those horses are the only good things in my life right now." Jennifer Crumbley wrote back.

Pennock also testified that at one point, she changed her mind about letting Jennifer Crumbley come to the barn alone, and messaged her that it was OK to visit the horses.

But Jennifer Crumbley wrote back:  "We're out of the area in a safe place."

According to Pennock's testimony, she and Crumbley communicated about the sale of the horses and their wellbeing in the days after the shooting, with Jennifer Crumbley noting at one point that her messages "are probably being monitored."

On Dec. 3, when Pennock suggested they meet to discuss selling the horses for cash, Crumbley responded: "Maybe. They're announcing charges at 12."

According to Pennock, she did not buy the horses, but they were signed over to her per the boarding contract. The Crumbleys have been jailed for more than two years, since those charges were announced.

On cross-examination by defense attorney Shannon Smith, Pennock conceded she was also friends with Jennifer Crumbley, not just a business associate.

She also testified that she had bad cell service at her barn as it was in a remote area, and that customers had difficulty making calls.

This detail is important to the defense because the Crumbleys have been accused of ignoring their son's text messages when they were out riding horses.

Smith is now trying to impeach the witness, questioning her about prior testimony when Pennock said in 2022: "I have never gotten the feeling that Jennifer and James had those types of issues with their son."

Smith asked Pennock why her current testimony is different — that she thought the Crumbleys had issues with their son. She couldn't explain the difference.

Smith then asked Pennock why she didn't call police after seeing the troubling drawing the shooter had made on the math sheet.

"I would not have known that something like this would have happened." Pennock responded.

That's precisely what Smith has been arguing about her client: that she could not predict what happened, not even after seeing that math paper, and that hindsight is 2020.

"If you had a crystal ball," would you have called police and stopped a shooting? Smith asked Pennock.

"Correct," the barn owner answered.

Smith also asked Pennock if she ever had any problems with Jennifer Crumbley stealing from her, or if she ever contacted police about such problems or concerns.

No, she answered, but she feared the Crumbleys, given their circumstances, may do things they hadn't done.

Defense attorney apologizes for 'kill myself' comment

After the jury was brought into the courtroom Monday, defense attorney Smith addressed the court, saying that on Friday she made a comment that was offensive to victims and the victims’ families. While struggling with exhibits as she questioned a witness, Smith said she was “going to kill myself.”

“I am apologizing for that comment,” Smith said. “I truly did not mean to say the comment I made.”

Judge Cheryl Matthews said: “I believe that.”

On Friday, after testimony concluded and jurors left the courtroom, prosecutors expressed concern about Smith’s comment. Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said parents of teens killed in the shooting were in the courtroom and she was “simply asking that we be respectful to victims.” Smith said she did not mean to offend the families.

Matthews said on Friday she thought “it was a slip of the tongue. … Emotions are running high.”

Jennifer Crumbley is OK with messages being admitted

Jennifer Crumbley testified briefly Monday without the jury present about her messages on Facebook.

At issue was whether the jury should see the entire Facebook Messenger thread from January 2021 through the day of the shooting. Crumbley said she does not object to all of them being admitted without redaction.

This Facebook conversation touches on subjects to which she previously objected. But now she is saying let it all in. It is unclear why, but presumably the exchanges will show more about how the Crumbleys' family interactions.

This article originally appeared on Detroit Free Press: Jennifer Crumbley trial in Oxford High shooting resumes